The beginning of the end?

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:36 pm

Justin,
I was perplexed, but not surprised that no self is needed there. Astounding illusion! Feels like autopilot.
I have noticed that there is "no one home"... at that moment I laughed out loud. :D
A bit spooky, hehe ... The world of thoughts seems so occupied and busy, yet strangely no one is there.
Yes, this mind was spooked too at first! Especially when I started looking at other people and couldn't find a self there... give it a try...

Well... things appear incredibly clear, Justin. No question marks. No what ifs, no buts, no conditions, no believing in a thought story that says 'oh, but I just need to get this straight or understand this and that first and maybe then I'll be ready to get this'. There's nothing to see outside of what is right now. It's all available and clear.

There is no Justin, there is no self, what else is there to do at this point? Smell the roses? Let thoughts be thoughts. Let Justin be Justin. Let life keep life-ing. But there is no one 'letting' it happen. It just is. Always has been. Always will be.. just this.. There was never a 'you' in any shape or form. So swallow the pill. Jump ship. Free fall. Crash the gate. The gate-less gate. There is no gate. It was an illusion the whole time. There is no one to crash the gate. There is nothing for 'you' to do. It's a gift of grace, an invitation to the mind to stop fighting the free fall that is this life - no control, nothing personal, no 'you'.

Smiling,
Gunnar

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JustinCase
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby JustinCase » Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:25 pm

Yes, this mind was spooked too at first! Especially when I started looking at other people and couldn't find a self there... give it a try...
Yeah, I've tried it ... While looking through the window there were people commuting, walking their dogs, a me watching them, and the thought "ghost town" occurred and damn if it wasn't spooky. (:

And this is it?
The gate is no more, nor ever was. Fascinating.
Throughout the day there was this experience of ease and lightness. Effortless being. Even the character "Justin" seemed to be calmer and less anxious. Like, his role shifted slightly. Less nagging thoughts, less bitching about mundane things... just this serenity ... that calmness hasn't been experienced in decades.
(It is so difficult to write now as well ... "I", "me", nouns, subject/object ... Resembles "oldspeak", if it may be borrowed from Orwell's 1984)

Gunnar, thank you for your guidance. This is a very profound experience.

Can this process be used for the world of objects as well? Like with the spoon?
There is no difference between imagination and sensory perception, right? This table exists as much as the self does.

With gratitude,
Justin

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:26 pm

Justin,
And this is it?
Lol, I think so. Cheers.
The gate is no more, nor ever was. Fascinating.
Throughout the day there was this experience of ease and lightness. Effortless being. Even the character "Justin" seemed to be calmer and less anxious. Like, his role shifted slightly. Less nagging thoughts, less bitching about mundane things... just this serenity ... that calmness hasn't been experienced in decades.
(It is so difficult to write now as well ... "I", "me", nouns, subject/object ... Resembles "oldspeak", if it may be borrowed from Orwell's 1984)
Absolutely beautiful.. and profound... yet ordinary...
Can this process be used for the world of objects as well? Like with the spoon?
There is no difference between imagination and sensory perception, right? This table exists as much as the self does.
Yes, it can be used with the world of objects as well. Great questions - keep looking into your experience! Trust DE! When people pass through the gate, often later-stage aspects of realization (such as the subject/object illusion or the emptiness of phenomenal reality) are somewhat available for a short time. Have fun exploring and soaking in whatever is right now :) Here are two guided inquiries into 'others' and 'future objects' that I have found so incredibly useful in this regard. I apply the same kind of inquiry to the 'world of objects'. I think you'll appreciate them, but maybe your seeing is so clear and fresh right now that these guidings are unnecessary, trust DE and see thoughts/perceptual filters as thoughts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWEjAZUGG5A&t=755s (15 min) (On other)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEXeUb0bh9s (12 min) (On future objects)
Gunnar, thank you for your guidance. This is a very profound experience.


You are very welcome. Thank you for sharing this with me. Such a joy and enriching experience for me.

BUT, we are not done yet... almost! Here at LU, we offer 'final questions' when someone appears to have crashed the gate. I share your answers with other guides to get their feedback or confirmation in case we've missed something. So if you feel ready, take a rip at these Q's:

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6. Anything to add?


Celebrating!
Gunnar

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JustinCase
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby JustinCase » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:15 pm

Hey, Gunnar,
I don't know what happened but I saw your post today only ...
I am having extra hours at work this week so I'll respond to the questions when time allows.

Justin

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:13 pm

All is good :)
G

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JustinCase
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby JustinCase » Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:56 am

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is none at all. Never was, never can be.
2. Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of self is made of thought (clusters). The illusion appears and disappears based on how it is perceived. Look to close, and it isn't there ... Don't look, it isn't there.
In direct experience the self doesn't start at all, but in thought it starts with the emergence of beingness, somewhere near our birth. Throughout life and experience the self starts accumulating more thoughts about itself and its environment. Each "new" thought or sensation "piggybacks" on the previous one, creating a self-perpetuating illusion of motion and continuity. Nature and nurture do their thing, until the sense of self solidifies and we identify ourselves with our name, our body, our thoughts, our nationality, culture, and so on.
But those are stories from memory and conceptualizations. As it is seen now, it works somewhat like this: Thoughts like "I am writing this," or "I am reading this," or "I am late for work" or "I want a new bicycle" are just thoughts, with no inherent subject in them. Thoughts just appear based on an action/reaction basis from a combination of memories/desires and external/internal stimuli, thoughts and sensations.
Let's say the body senses an impulse to look at the clock. It looks at the clock and then the mind realizes that it is going to be late for work; narration kicks in in the form of a thought: "It's late, I am going to be late to work," implying that there is a separate self, "I", that is going to be late. Upon closer observation, the "I" thought disappears like it never has been, and what is only left is "being late for work".
Through old conditioning the mind insists that there is a self there that is going to be late (but the nagging is less and less now).
3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels like the most natural thing there is. It is strange, but yet so familiar.
Before, there was this sense of ownership of doing or thinking, but now it is observed to be just a occurrence in the world of thoughts. The mind seems to has been trapping itself constantly in a forest of concepts, so that the forest itself couldn't be seen. Now, the forest is clearly to be perceived, no matter if it is thought or sensation.
Thoughts of ownership still arise, but awareness now permeates them more, making them more transient than ever. Those thoughts vanish easily, and what's left is this _______ - which I cannot name. "Emptiness" comes close to it, but it's not really empty. It is fullness, beingness, ... it just IS. Then the mind rushes in to give that state a proper label, which is being noticed as "thought occurring".
Before this dialog, things appeared a certain way. Now they are similar, but there is a very distinct texture to it.
4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?
After an emotional turmoil (a cocktail of anger, sadness, and depression) a lot of doubt and skepticism, and discussing it with my wife, I've payed more attention to the sensation of the body and looking for the thought overlay.
I've proceeded to give attention to the sensation in the palm of my hand. Then I touched the table with the same palm and gave attention to the sensation again, being vigilant for the thought overlay.
Hand on, hand off, hand on, hand off... Then a realization occurred and mind conceptualized it with words:"It's just sensation! Yes, the feelings differ, but both sensations are just sensations."
The next day, things were different. In the morning, the turmoil continued, but around afternoon, as thoughts processed the experience from the night before (and with some "cutting through" a shrieking of ego), "I" finally GOT it.
To that point there has been only conceptualizing happening - trying to understand and to explain it to myself logically. After that point, seeing what actually is being experienced, has taken over.
I've posted here that day.
The next day, I've woke up with a different state of mind (if it can be described like that). I've read what you posted, Gunnar, and after seeing no question marks, and looking out of the window that no one has a self, it dawned on "me" ... No one home. Ghost town. Poof. Gone was I. But it wasn't gone, because it was truly never there in the first place. It just appeared as an entity that does the thinking or sensing.
5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
These question could be answered with the following example:

Let's say that "I" want a new bicycle for whatever reason... maybe "Because I want to commute to work, be healthier, and contribute to less CO2 emissions..."
The lack (of something) caused a desire, and then the desire caused an intention. Intending to buy a new bicycle appears as thoughts in mind as "I will buy a bike". Then, after browsing the web, and after DECIDING happened of which bicycle to buy, CHOOSING happens, "I choose this blue bike". But no "I" is there that did the intending, deciding or choosing. Just thoughts appeared as the event "wanting/buying a bike" unfolded.
When the question "Who chose to buy the bicycle?" is posed, the mind fills the whole event retroactively with thoughts of ownership, claiming that IT did it, and therefore it is in CONTROL. This whole endeavor, mind labels as FREE WILL, which is absurd, if we see it clearly for what it is. The mind/thought world identifies itself as The Self.
Let's then suppose that "I got late for work, because I didn't calculate well the time it takes to ride my bicycle there." Again, another event starts out from the desire "I will not be late to work, if I leave home earlier." Intention, decision/choice, control, free will ... all got its inertia from the previous event. The cause becomes the effect, and the effect becomes the cause. This is how it happens from birth to death. Things folding and unfolding.

What makes things happen?
Things make things happen.

How does it work?
Domino-effect.

What are you responsible for?
There is no "me" being responsible for anything.
The question implies an entity, though, so in that context, the following answer can be given:
"I" am not responsible for anything, since the I that thinks of itself as I doesn't have any substance or existence - just thinking happening, sensing happening, acting happening, etc.
Even in this very moment of answering these questions, there is no "I" being responsible of answering them. Just thinking happening. Writing happening. No entity of self doing it.
6. Anything to add?
It can be added that "I" cannot take any credit for these thoughts and words.
There are still voices in my head claiming ownership, but there's knowledge about their substance, origin, and nature.
It is a very peculiar and strange state of being, if it can be called that way, and all these years thoughts have been used to reinforce thoughts, and with it the personality structure as well.
Now, when seen, that the structure is truly just a play of thoughts and sensations, one is perplexed how it wasn't seen until now.



Gunnar, thank you for the links .. they resonate. :)

Best wishes,
Justin Case

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:33 pm

Justin,
The illusion appears and disappears based on how it is perceived. Look to close, and it isn't there ... Don't look, it isn't there.
lol, love this.

Well I've shared your writing with other guides and they have confirmed your crashing of the gate.. but you already know there is no gate and no one can crash it :) Congratulations Justin, well-deserved, well... probably more a gift of grace... So happy for you. A pleasure to journey with you.

You should be getting a private message from Nerina soon on this platform. She'll invite you the FB group and send you off in the right direction. This is really just the beginning of this 'waking up' shenanigans. You'll find some direction, support, and inquiries for deepening realization in these FB groups and you can reach out to me by private message here or by FB messenger if something comes up at any point.

Trust your gut as this unfold, you might be like: "Deepen this??! But it's perfect, what's there to do!???" Trust that, enjoy it, soak in it. And at some point you might be like: "Oh dang, The self is seen through but there's still reactivity and suffering. Something more needs to be done." That's where these resources may be helpful. Even so, the magnitude of no one has brought you this far into the stream. Let the stream take you home.

This thread will be archived here soon, but still accessible somewhere in the LU ethers. FYI.

Surfs up,
Gunnar

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:44 pm

Justin,

I wanted to add two short videos that are helpful in integration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w (10 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4 (5 min)

Gunnar

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JustinCase
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby JustinCase » Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:12 pm

Hey, Gunnar

I wanna express my deep appreciation for your guidance and for the existence of this forum. I probably would've been still stuck in concepts and thought.
There is not much to say after this except expressing gratitude for this exchange. It truly was a gift and blessing. :)

It is immensely strange how a personality can unbind in such a short notice with just clear looking. Amazing! The journey continues ... Further ... :)

Thanks, Gunnar,

With Gratitude,
Justin

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gmalen
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Re: The beginning of the end?

Postby gmalen » Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:07 pm

You're welcome Justin,
It is immensely strange how a personality can unbind in such a short notice with just clear looking. Amazing! The journey continues ... Further ... :)
Unbelievable, really!

Hugs and appreciation,
Gunnar


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