Reading “Liberation Unleashed” - had some questions

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry.

How could anyone tell if a tree makes a sound if no one is around to hear it?

Of course, this is an accurate and literal answer.
The tree and falling and sound is really irrelevant here. It was a sequel into the biological fact that the interpretation of any of the sense inputs happens in the brain.
The really important thing to consider here is that your thoughts and your feelings, whether they be from external stimulation or internal, are all creations. Unique to you and shaped by your personality.
You certainly can't believe that any of them reveals an objective actuality. Can you grok this?

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hello Vince,

The really important thing to consider here is that your thoughts and your feelings, whether they be from external stimulation or internal, are all creations. Unique to you and shaped by your personality.
You certainly can't believe that any of them reveals an objective actuality. Can you grok this?

Had to look up “grok” – but yes, I can grok this. 😊

I’ve never believed / nor have I ever witnessed an objective actuality. It's all subjective on the individual.

Been in meetings where one person leaves the meeting with a completely different take away than me.
There are those who could be referred to as pessimistic and optimistic who will always see something different in a situation. Simple stuff too, like waking up late or not getting enough sleep or not enough to eat will change how your current moment is seen and even the more "complex" stuff like bias blind spots.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

It's all subjective on the individual.

Good. So give me an example of something actual and something conceptual. (from the perspective of Barry)

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hello Vince,

So give me an example of something actual and something conceptual. (from the perspective of Barry)

This felt like a trick question (though I don't believe you are giving a trick question). Going from it's all subjective to what is actual really made me ponder this.

Something actual (from the perspective of Barry): Eyes closed. Sounds, clicking keyboard, grinding of coffee from the kitchen. Fingers on Keyboard. Strip it down further and it's just sensations.

Something conceptual (from the perspective of Barry): This whole enlightenment game. Anything I read or anything anyone tells me. They're all trying to describe something to me. Attempting to communicate an experience.

I still feel like I missed the mark a bit. I don't think I've really looked at "is it actual or is it conceptual?"
Of course we throw around things like, "Did he actually say that?" "Did she actually do that?"

Actual from my perspective (which was the question) won't be actual from someone elses perspective. Which was the previous question. Looking for a common actuality and I can't think of anything... which makes me wonder about my own take on what is actual.


Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Barry,

So give me an example of something actual and something conceptual.

Something actual (from the perspective of Barry): Eyes closed. Sounds, clicking keyboard, grinding of coffee from the kitchen. Fingers on Keyboard. Strip it down further and it's just sensations.

Really good answer. Yes, your experiencing is the only thing that is actual from the perspective of the organism with the label "Barry".
And something conceptual... Everything else. Everything else is what the mind thinks ABOUT things.
Now here's the really big step. The sensations in experiencing are actual but what they mean is conceptual.
So where do these (so called) things fit? Truth. Morality. Self. Time. Others. (now think about this one..) The Statue of Liberty?

which makes me wonder about my own take on what is actual.

Excellent!
i say that everything is a mystery. I'm not even sure that the sensations I call hunger isn't largely mind stuff.

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vince.
Hope all is well in your corner of the world.

Had some fun looking into these questions-- I hope they're not too wordy.

Now here's the really big step. The sensations in experiencing are actual but what they mean is conceptual.

Attempting to see this: Drinking coffee… there is taste that I recognize as coffee. Eating a spoonful of peanut butter… there is taste that I recognize as peanut butter.

I recognize that my mind is labeling one as coffee and one as peanut butter.

I recognizing that these have two very different tastes (flavors). My mind is again recognizing this difference; however, at some level these two different flavors are actual, are they not? Without labels, these are still two different tastes much like there can be different sound flavors (ha!) – There is a difference between the senses. Touch is different from sight or experiencing a feeling. Just trying to find the line between actual and conceptual.

Writing this out I can see that this path leads to preference. I enjoy X food over Y food.
At the most basic level it is all just sensation. Either there is a sensation or there isn’t a sensation.

So where do these (so called) things fit? Truth. Morality. Self. Time. Others.

Truth, Morality I can easily see as conceptual. Everyone has his or her own concept of Truth and morality… hell even I have a different concept of Truth and Morality depending on the situation / time of day!

Time is also a concept though this feels stickier / harder to see. We have X amount of time do Y. We have X amount of time until Y. But I understand that time, as in hours and minutes and days and weeks etc., is a completely man made construct for practical purposes.

Conceptually, I understand time as a concept (lol!)

I understand that I can’t experience time in regards to a sensation yet… it's still hard to see past and I’m not sure why. Probably because everyday life is all centered on time. More investigation needed.

Self, again I conceptually understand it to be a concept, but have yet to see through it. But that’s the aim, right?

(now think about this one..) The Statue of Liberty?

Conceptually. I’m not standing in front of the statue of liberty. I can’t see, taste, touch, hear, or smell it. Even thinking about it, I think of a magnet I once owned… not even thinking of the “actual” (ha!) statue of liberty and I’m certain that your thought of the statue of liberty will be different than mine. I have memories of it that you would not and vice versa.

Thanks for all your help and guidance. Sending appreciation.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

I hope they're not too wordy.

Wordy is fine.

at some level these two different flavors are actual, are they not?

Absolutely. You experience them so they are actual for the organism with the "Barry" label. What you call them is conceptual. Your experience of coffee is as unique as you are. (as mine is)
See how we used a common concept here to point to two different experiences (yours and mine)?
To describe and communicate we need concepts. It's when we take them as actual that 'problems' can occur.

Just trying to find the line between actual and conceptual.

The only thing that is actual from your perspective is your experiencing.
I'll repeat that in a different way. Everything is conceptual except for your experiencing.
Notice I said "experiencing" Your experiences are conceptual. They are memory.
Another way to define this is that concepts are always ABOUT something.

Time is also a concept though this feels stickier / harder to see.

Just as there is a sense of self, there is a sense of time.
We have a feeling that one 'event' happened before another one. We have a feeling that one event happened a long time before another one.
We mentally construct something that hasn't happened yet, but expect it to. We say that it is future.
The past is memory. The future is fantasy. What about NOW? Is NOW a time sandwiched between the past and future?

Self, again I conceptually understand it to be a concept, but have yet to see through it.

Expand on this. How will "seeing through it" happen?

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hello Vince,
Thank you for the replies. Very insightful.

The only thing that is actual from your perspective is your experiencing.
I'll repeat that in a different way. Everything is conceptual except for your experiencing.
Notice I said "experiencing" Your experiences are conceptual. They are memory.
Another way to define this is that concepts are always ABOUT something.

This makes perfect sense and can be seen clearly. My mind was trying to make it more complex but it’s right there at the surface, no need to dig deeper.

I read this to my fiancé, and she responded with the Shakespeare quote, A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, which I thought was brilliant.

Time is also a concept though this feels stickier / harder to see.

Just as there is a sense of self, there is a sense of time.
We have a feeling that one 'event' happened before another one. We have a feeling that one event happened a long time before another one.

We mentally construct something that hasn't happened yet, but expect it to. We say that it is future.
The past is memory. The future is fantasy. What about NOW?

This is also clearer now. All that can be experienced is in NOW. Time is a concept because yesterday, one hour ago, two minutes ago don’t exist, just concepts, just memories, and thoughts. I can see this / have seen this many times but it’s easy to forget and slip back into the conceptual.

Is NOW a time sandwiched between the past and future?

Only conceptually it is sandwiched between past and future. But ACTUALLY it is not. There is ACTUALLY only right now. Just now…. And now just now… and now just now…

Self, again I conceptually understand it to be a concept, but have yet to see through it.

Expand on this. How will "seeing through it" happen?

It will happen in the NOW. It will be experienced ACTUALLY.
As I write these words, I see that they are still concepts about IT. But just like tasting, or seeing, or hearing it must be experienced.

Heart is beating, breathing, sounds arise. All on their own. Seeing arises, my shirt and fingers. Darkness, closed eyes. Breathing.

How to see this?

Attention moves from one sense to another, moves to a thought. Must this attention move to the seeing of no self? How do other realizations happen?

Answer: They just happen. Reminded of other “big” realizations and they just arise. A truth that can’t be denied.



Again…

How will "seeing through it" happen?

At this moment I don’t know.


Thank you for your guidance.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

'evening Barry,

have seen this many times but it’s easy to forget and slip back into the conceptual.

Yes, of course. It's not only easy, it's required if you describe anything or communicate with another person.
Being awake doesn't mean that you never operate from the conceptual. It means that if you suffer in any way that you will quickly realize that you had been taking the conceptual as actual.

There is ACTUALLY only right now. Just now…. And now just now… and now just now…

Absolutely. Even to say "just now" is conceptual. It points to current experiencing. i prefer to say THIS. There is only THIS that is actual.
Now here's a big one. By the time you become aware of THIS (current experiencing) it has already slipped into the past. It is done. So there is no point in wishing that it had happened differently.
In fact, to do so only corrupts it further. Adding stories of how it could have been or should have been robs the situation of it's learning potential. The consequences of it become less than ideal.
There is only one way to get use the opportunity for learning and that is to have as wide a perspective as possible. A willing, welcoming acceptance of what has already happened, removes opinion (judgment) from the situation and consequences are clearly seen.

Self, again I conceptually understand it to be a concept, but have yet to see through it.

You have seen through it. You clearly recognize that the experiencing of a sense of self doesn't mean that an actual, inherently independent self exists. You've (probably) missed the boat if your waiting for an AHA experience, an epiphany, to accompany it.
Recognizing that the self is in fact a bunch of stories (about Barry) that you respond to, is only one portal to waking up.
Fall through any portal and all of the delusions transform into illusions.
From your responses it is clear to me that you already recognize the delusion of Truth, Time, Self, Morality.. ok, I'm not sure about morality. What do you think that it actually is?
..and while you're about it, tell me your thoughts on what you are responsible for?

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Good morning Vince.

Here are are my responses.

have seen this many times but it’s easy to forget and slip back into the conceptual.

Yes, of course. It's not only easy, it's required if you describe anything or communicate with another person.

Ahh… yes that makes perfect sense. Had one of those 'duh!' moments. Thank you for showing me that.

Now here's a big one. By the time you become aware of THIS (current experiencing) it has already slipped into the past. It is done. So there is no point in wishing that it had happened differently.

This is also seen. Being aware of being aware removes the awareness of THIS and back to the AWARENESS. But then THIS becomes is the awareness of THIS all over again… does that make sense? For lack of a better word… a very strange phenomenon.

From your responses it is clear to me that you already recognize the delusion of Truth, Time, Self, Morality.. ok, I'm not sure about morality. What do you think that it actually is?

I see morality as much more conceptual than it is actual as I stated above… but when it is ACTUAL is when the feeling labeled “Morality” arises. I suppose doing something and thinking “this is right” or not doing something because “this is wrong” would be an ACTUAL from of morality. Once you start dissecting it though, asking what makes this morally right, or morally wrong would then make it conceptual. Just that raw feeling of KNOWING this is right or wrong without any thought is actual.

..and while you're about it, tell me your thoughts on what you are responsible for?

Hmm… I’m actually quite interested in your response to this one.
Have you ever read Sadhguru’s book, Inner Engineering? He has a whole piece in there about responsibility. If I’m remembering correctly, Sadhgurur says that right now, in THIS, we are responsible for EVERYTHING. And I never understood that.

I believe his use of responsibility is different from mine. I’m probably going to butcher what Sadhguru says / means but I understood it as… since we have the ability to respond therefore we must respond. If you see someone falling down it doesn’t mean running to his or her aid (though you may) it means you are responsible for responding to this and I suppose it could be responding with a feeling or a thought? That’s what I never understood I guess.



But back to your question, and from the perspective of Barry...

..and while you're about it, tell me your thoughts on what you are responsible for?

I think it’s quite similar to morality. When the feeling of responsibility appears, knowing it as responsibility makes it actual. My dog barking at the door to be let it. I move to the door to let her in. A timer on my phone goes off. I move my hand and shut the ringer off. I brake at stop signs when driving. These are things I’m responsible for but as soon as they’re gone / thought about they’re just conceptual.

Looking forward to your replies.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

Being aware of being aware removes the awareness of THIS and back to the AWARENESS. But then THIS becomes the awareness of THIS all over again… does that make sense?

Yes. Story/response/story/response/etc

what you are responsible for?

Sadhguru says that right now, in THIS, we are responsible for EVERYTHING.

I don't know if this is what he meant, but I take it to point to the fact that everything I experience is created by me. Sadhguru seems to take the word response-ible literally to mean the ability to respond. The common use in the English language means more like a moral obligation. A duty.
To me this is obviously a cult(rural) creation.
It makes more sense to consider possible consequences when a requirement for action occurs.

But back to your question, and from the perspective of Barry...

Good answer.
Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Hi Vince,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

I still feel very much like a separate self.

I often wonder if I'm not THIS than what am I?
I'm looking for a place to hang ME on to and I'm certain that's not how this works.

When I look for myself I come back to that which is searching, that which sees, that which smells, and breaths. Even though I know seeing happens, smells happen, breathing happens, they still very much to happen TO ME.

I can't control those things but I'm the one that experiences those things.

Thank you for your guidance and patience.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

I still feel very much like a separate self.

Of course you feel this way. The question is really "do you recognize these feelings as illusory or do you think that they point to an inherently independent self?

I often wonder if I'm not THIS than what am I?

Language insists on an answer but it's the same answer to the question "how long is a piece of string?"
You perceive your experiencing through the filters that life (and DNA) has given you. My perception of vince's experiencing is unique to me. No doubt they are very different. What we actually are, what the (apparently) objective world is can't be known. Our senses and mind doesn't have to capacity to know this. We only have our experiencing which is an interpretation of this. Is your's right and mine wrong, because they are different.

I'm looking for a place to hang ME on to

I've hung vince on the 'mystery' hook. ..although if I investigate what is actually hanging there, I end up in the mystery basket again. Is it the body, or the mind, or a combination? What the label 'vince' points to, in an absolute sense, is unknown.

Even though I know seeing happens, smells happen, breathing happens, they still very much to happen TO ME.

No they don't. Only language says that there has to be a subject and an object. In actual fact there is only seeing or smelling of breathing.
See for yourself. Do this exercise; Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice thoughts labelling what you see.
Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.
Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?
Go back to simply watching thoughts as you look at the cup.
After a while of watching thoughts, they will get bored and slow down. Now look for spaces between thoughts.
Focus on seeing in the spaces. They may be milliseconds, but notice them.
There will be no labelling. ..and anyway, the colours, the textures, the shapes, etc will be too subtle, too complex to be accurately described.
As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?
When you finish seeing, do you then see the cup as a story. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use?
..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.

with love

vince

[BarBarryN]

Good evening, Vince.

Took some time with this exercise.

See for yourself. Do this exercise; Take a cup and place it in front of you.
Start looking at it and notice thoughts labelling what you see.

Seeing… attention to the bright screen next to me and I turn it off. Back to seeing. See the object behind the glass, a remote control and think of the television. Focus in on a design on the glass and the shape of the glass is blurred and only a single point is focused on. A sound from the other room. The glass blends in so much to the coffee table… notice reflections in the glass… labeling as reflections. Notice the coffee table in which it sits on and labeling it as coffee table.

Consider the process of looking.
Consider the process of seeing.

I notice when I’m very concentrated on one aspect of the glass there isn’t mind activity but there also isn’t any longer a glass. Its just a single point of concentration. Like everything except for this single point is just peripheral vision or something.

It’s funny to say without mind activity there isn’t a glass… which I suspect is the purpose of this… but I don’t think this narrow concentration is the aim of the practice right? It’s hard call this narrow concentration as seeing. I don’t believe you could exist in this state for long… it’s just all focus. There isn’t a middle ground and maybe I’m expecting one to be there?

Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing stop?

Yes the seeing stopped. Much like the concentration, the point of concentration moved to the thought. It’s like having a television on but not actually watching the television.

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself can there be a seer or a seen without the seeing stopping.
Is there only seeing?

As soon as the question is thought the seeing is stopped.
There cannot be a seer if the seeing stops. Attention moves from one thing to the next. Just seeing then just hearing and then just thinking… BUT something is seeing—whether the seer is aware of it or not. It’s like driving somewhere but you’re just so caught up in your thoughts that you don’t really remember how you got there. I wouldn’t call this the seer though… thankful the body is doing its thing and the lack of attention didn’t get in a car accident.

When you finish seeing, do you then see the cup as a story. A cup that has uses and takes up space, and need washing after use?

I see it as an object, yes. I see it needs a refill.

..but we aren't actually seeing it anymore. We look at it but recognize a vessel to contain something. The details have vanished leaving an impression.

Hmmm.

Yes, I recognize it as a vessel to contain something but I see more of it than I did in deep concentration. In the deep concentration of seeing, it was just abstract fuzzy lines.

Let me try this again…

It’s meditating with your eyes open. I notice things that are still appear to wave and move. There is no labeling. I notice my thoughts jump and my attention moves from one thing to another. Back to the the cup and stillness and those wavy lines.

I see that there is just seeing when there is just seeing and there is just hearing when there is just hearing. As soon as it’s noticed It’s gone. There is not "I" thoughts and they come after the seeing and after the hearing. It’s just for a second or two.

I feel like I'm missing something. Not connecting the dots. Feeling quite thick headed at the moment.

Appreciate your help.

Barry

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Barry,

I notice when I’m very concentrated on one aspect of the glass there isn’t mind activity but there also isn’t any longer a glass.

Exactly. Glass is a concept which is an interpretation of not only the physical characteristics but the purpose for this thing. That is, 'glass' is a mental construct.

It’s funny to say without mind activity there isn’t a glass… which I suspect is the purpose of this… but I don’t think this narrow concentration is the aim of the practice right?

The aim of this exercise is to demonstrate the difference between direct experiencing (the seeing) and the concepts that mind creates.
So, from doing the exercise you can see that although direct experiencing is possible, it is always overlayed by mental stories. These stories are what we respond to with feelings and behavior.
This is a big one... We live our day responding to stuff that the mind creates.
Sometimes those creations are a response to what is experienced, but mostly we respond to responses. Responses to the responses to concepts and stories that are our unique interpretation of what is happening.
Can we have a direct experience of a self, or is self a concept to describe our unique responses?

with love

vince