Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Bennett.

It is a wholly radical shift to view the action without the subject....seeing is just seeing, no subject and maybe not even an object.

Yes, it's radical. ..but we don't need to get bogged down with it. We will still talk AS IF there were subject & object. Otherwise communication will break down.
It's something to be examined freshly if unpleasant emotions arise. Especially if habit takes us to blaming..

holding or not holding onto these feelings or patterns of...

What we are really describing here is the reoccurring nature of this. The same kind of feeling happen again and again. This is conditioned. This is what will change with being aware of the arising of them. We can't be involved in them if we are seeing them happening.

I know you have pointed this out to me before. I'll get it eventually.

Sure. It does take repetition to change the conditioning. To introduce more adaptive conditioning.

So what's the point of griping about it.
But is there not a point in celebrating it?

Griping about it immerses us more deeply into it. Celebrating takes us out of it. One is a narrowing of perspective and the other is a widening of perspective. The second one is where wisdom begins.

with love (& ultimate patience - grin)

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey there Vince

.but we don't need to get bogged down with it.

Thanks for the warning...getting bogged down in the understandings has been one of those conditioned habits of "mine"..but then again so is seeing them as "my" habits and "my" conditioning. Bogs everywhere!...and I can see how the "I"Bog is the gran-daddy of them all. And it is bog-us!

Especially if habit takes us to blaming..

I can see how this would extend into blaming of all sorts...people, events, oneself, conditions, gravity, weather, viruses, DNA...anything that leads to victim hood. If there is no "I" then there are no victims. (?) Life is just Life-ing. Unfolding ...as it is...cant be any other way...so how could there be a victim...or blame? Another radical view...not to get bogged down in.

being aware of the arising of them. We can't be involved in them if we are seeing them happening.

This is still a sticky one for me.. I get it...but I dont really get it . I've heard it described as the space in which everything appears...the space is unaffected by what comes and goes and yet it contains all happenings. Yet it still feels very much like it is happening to a me, that I am both aware of them and involved in them at the same time. That is still my experience. Or is it? Probably just need to look a little deeper. It seems like it would take another one of those radical changes in perspective.

Griping about it immerses us more deeply into it. Celebrating takes us out of it. One is a narrowing of perspective and the other is a widening of perspective. The second one is where wisdom begins.

I'll keep this mind when the going gets tough. S'pose that means we cant pick and choose which bits to celebrate and which bits we get to gripe about, huh? Celebrating the crap when it arises and is experienced is still a tough one. I still want to find a way to shut it down...I still rail against it. But maybe that is just part of the arising too.

(& ultimate patience - grin)

Thanks for that Vince


Bennett

[vinceschubert]

'evening Capt'n,

I've heard it described as the space in which everything appears...the space is unaffected by what comes and goes and yet it contains all happenings.

Yeah Nah. Forget the woo woo stuff. Keep it real (you know what i mean by that.) If you expressing anger (as an example) and you can see that your expressing anger, it's hard to do both at the same time.

Yet it still feels very much like it is happening to a me, that I am both aware of them and involved in them at the same time.

If both are happening at the same time, then you're not fully invested in one of them.
So if you can say that you see that you are expressing anger and the anger doesn't abate, then look closer at the story that triggered the anger. If the story isn't apparent, that's ok, dissect the sensations that are happening in the body. This will also take you out of the anger experience. Then celebrate the fact that you were able to see what was happening.

Yet it still feels very much like it is happening to a me

Of course it will. An illusion is that when you investigate you can see that your senses fooled you.
A delusion is when in spite of seeing that, you insist on believing.

S'pose that means we cant pick and choose which bits to celebrate and which bits we get to gripe about, huh?

Celebrating happens. Griping happens. Do you think if intention happens, then that might be a condition that will contribute to a happening. (..and I'm guessing that you wouldn't intend for griping to happen)

Celebrating the crap when it arises and is experienced is still a tough one.

That crap is the best opportunity to learn, to change. Much better than when things go our way.

I still want to find a way to shut it down...I still rail against it.

Ooh, that's an energy vampire. ..and it makes us busier than we need to be.

But maybe that is just part of the arising too.

If it happens then it is. No maybe.

Thanks for that Vince

You're welcome, and thank you Bennett. Everything that i say to you strengthens synaptic connections here too.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey Vince

Yeah Nah. Forget the woo woo stuff. Keep it real (you know what i mean by that.) If you expressing anger (as an example) and you can see that your expressing anger, it's hard to do both at the same time.

Its all woo woo stuff. Its all stories about stories about concepts about beliefs. LU would be considered by most to be pretty high on the woowoo scale. Looking for no self? How weird is that? Once we start using words or metaphors or descriptions we move steadily away from the real. I know we've been around this block before, but, what is real? Is what I experience real or just my experience. Perhaps that is what you mean by "real". In which case it seems real that I both experience and see that I am experiencing whatever is arising. Be it labeled pleasant or unpleasant. There is the feeler and the feeling, the thought and the thinker, the seer and the seeing. I know this contradicts my reportings about the cup exercise but there it is. Dont know how these both can be true. Or how relevant this all is. Maybe this is my superpower this time around.

If both are happening at the same time, then you're not fully invested in one of them.
So if you can say that you see that you are expressing anger and the anger doesn't abate, then look closer at the story that triggered the anger. If the story isn't apparent, that's ok, dissect the sensations that are happening in the body. This will also take you out of the anger experience. Then celebrate the fact that you were able to see what was happening.

Ive been applying this indiscriminately to all feelings..."good" and "bad"....with no preference with whether they stay or go. I dont need to figure them out, or study them, just witness their arising, the experiencing and their dissipation. They come and go like the tides..sorry to be to woo woo ;) Turns out, I have noting to do with them.

Celebrating happens. Griping happens. Do you think if intention happens, then that might be a condition that will contribute to a happening. (..and I'm guessing that you wouldn't intend for griping to happen)

If intention happens there is no I to prefer griping over celebrating. What comes, comes. I could intend for griping to happen...dont I love to gripe!....but celebration may arise instead. I hate when that happens.

That crap is the best opportunity to learn, to change. Much better than when things go our way.

So the story goes. But is it true? Only because we have such thick heads and refuse the other path. A course in Miracles has a whole insight on "The Happy Learner".... and how we can learn thru the crap but the joyous lessons have much more appeal and staying power. I'm more of a positive reinforcement guy. Not that the crap cant teach us...oh it can....but its only a consolation prize. Required only as long as we think it is. Not that I'm a shining example of all this. But occasionally......

I still want to find a way to shut it down...I still rail against it.

Ooh, that's an energy vampire. ..and it makes us busier than we need to be.

Most certainly is, and I get caught up in its evil ways and wonder where my garlic, mirror, and silver stake are. I am very much like an amoeba in this regard ... I just want to move away from what is unpleasant in my environment and move towards what is.

Good Stuff, Vince...we'll get me there eventually.

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

'evening Bennett,

we'll get me there eventually.

ha, a big "yeah!" came out, then "but this is ok too." happened. i have no idea what might transpire. i see pictures of Bennett 'getting it', then i remember doing what you are doing for 43 years before vince 'got it'.
i had a lot of highs on the way, and plenty of lows too, but now it feels like they all happened to someone else.
Now, whatever is happening, is alright. Your post tonight was a bit of a downer, but that's alright too.
The switch to getting it is tiny. Like a light switch that moves less than a quarter of an inch, but changes a room from total darkness to brilliant light. Making every detail apparent.
i searched and searched. i had a library of over 100 books. i had CDs. i tried religion. Psychodrama, Encounter Groups, did psychology at university, Advaita, did many 10 and 20 day silent meditation retreats. Oh and the list goes on, and in the end when somebody said to me that "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while you keep scratching it." WHAM! i got it.
i saw that while i identified as a seeker that i was invested in not 'getting it'. WHAM! i saw, no it hit me in the face, that THIS IS IT. Whatever my experience of THIS is, then it is IT.
Doesn't matter how good or how shitty it is. It is still THIS.
..and anyhow, by the time that i became aware of it, it was already in the past, so couldn't be changed. So no point in griping about it. (unless griping happened)

what is real?

THIS. (and nothing)

In which case it seems real that I both experience and see that I am experiencing whatever is arising.

It is irrelevant that is seems real. Except that what is seems shapes the experience. Then you experience the seeing of the experience. If it seemed unreal then the experience would be different.
It doesn't matter. If we stop trying to understand or explain, then we free up a lot of energy.
Once you 'get it', (after the novelty wears off) things get very ordinary. (that's not actually true - but for the sake of this story it will do.) Things will still seem real. You will still behave AS IF there was a self. You will still behave like a responsible adult (on the outside, at least) Nobody will see the change in you. Your physical preferences will remain largely the same.

Ive been applying this indiscriminately to all feelings..."good" and "bad"....with no preference with whether they stay or go. I dont need to figure them out, or study them, just witness their arising, the experiencing and their dissipation. They come and go like the tides..

Excellent. Is there a story about expectations that hangs off this?

If intention happens there is no I to prefer griping over celebrating. What comes, comes.

Yes, good. Does this change your experiencing from how it used to be?

That crap is the best opportunity to learn, to change.

So the story goes. But is it true?

Who knows. It just seems like a useful story. Is it?

I still want to find a way to shut it down...I still rail against it.

Ooh, that's an energy vampire. ..and it makes us busier than we need to be.

Most certainly is, and I get caught up in its evil ways and wonder where my garlic, mirror, and silver stake are.

Looking for tools to end it just add to the story (and experience) of it. It's a diversion.
It can be fun driving through the mud, but even if you think that you have to, there is always a way around it.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Morning Vince

I've been feeling trepidation...or something like that....anxiety of some flavor....certainly a reluctance, hesitancy, and a bit of staling ....around opening and responding to your posts. Not just you ..same with Stacy. Dont know what that is about. These feel somewhat like pressure...like exams in school, of not being prepared, or getting it right, or having the right answer...or of being as honest and open and clear as I could be. Maybe its the ego afraid of being exposed for the fraud that it is...a kind of defense mechanism. Whatever it is, its there every time. I want to feel excited and on fire to burn thru all the crap but it mostly feels alot like hard work that I've got to psych myself up for. The voice that comes through is.."See you'll never get it...you cant even do this right...all you want to do is argue and stay stuck in your head...Loser"

Based on our conversations can we say it is more conditioning and stories and doesnt need analysis or to be understood? Just seen as another arising from the prevailing conditions of culture, DNA, environment etc. Given all the givens it couldnt be any different. Given just the right conditions ....water temp, moisture content, prevailing winds, all the other weather patterns in the area, the rotation of the plant etc etc etc a hurricane develops. No harm, no foul. Same here. Just a very particular and precise set of conditions and...voila...this Bennett thing is experiencing something. Nothing "he" did about it...or could do to prevent it...or needs to. It has nothing to do with "him"

Even now, I'm looking forward to being done writing this and hitting the "Submit" button. I think to myself "Ah...another thing accomplished...a bit of relief...until the next time that Vince writes back with more god damned questions that I wont know how to answer."

It never ends.

But in a strange way, I'm a bit ok with that. Like its not my fight anymore...its just a fight....a thing...an event...no more than it is "my" Hurricane.

Anyway...got thru all that and here's the results....


Like you, I have been at this for a while with lots of forays into different teachings. Quite honestly I am getting weary of the search and the searching.....to stop the wanting of scratching or not scratching that mosquito bite,,,(interestingly...one is biting my hand right now...or is there?) ....To not be invested in it either way. At the end of the day..is there anyone to be invested or not to be invested...."that is the question"

Your post tonight was a bit of a downer, but that's alright too.

Funny thing is Vince, I could feel that was so when I was writing it but it didnt bother me...at least not like it used to. It just was what it was...like reporting a bit of stormy weather...or a wild fire passing thru. I was just the reporter. Like you say...but that's alright too. And it is.

It doesn't matter. If we stop trying to understand or explain, then we free up a lot of energy.

Thank the Lord!! 'cause I dont "get"it...or I'm not allowing myself to.

That crap is the best opportunity to learn, to change.

So the story goes. But is it true?

Who knows. It just seems like a useful story. Is it?

yes, I suppose it is...and thats a good way to look at it..or any of it...is it a useful story? Can this be applied to the story of "I"? of body....of world...to all of it?

Excellent. Is there a story about expectations that hangs off this?

Jeez Vince....not that I can see. I looks pretty clean. Cant say I'm all the way there, but there is a widening crack.

Does this change your experiencing from how it used to be?

Feels like there is less investment in outcome...which is freeing...like watching a football match and neither team is "mine"....much funner to watch. Not the emotional roller-coaster....which has its own addictive quality.

Thanks again my friend

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Hey Bennett, Ha, your post triggered in me a momentary sense of responsibility at setting an unwelcome chore for you. Thank you.
..and now, even though that has passed, and i'm seeing it as an honest description of your experience, i would still like to make it more inviting for you. i'm unsure how, but...

Maybe its the ego afraid of being exposed for the fraud that it is

Very possible, ..or maybe a simple fear of failure?

a kind of defense mechanism.

Definitely this, yes.
Has there been any value in seeing it happen?

I want to feel excited and on fire to burn thru all the crap but it mostly feels a lot like hard work that I've got to psych myself up for.

Well, you are definitely making hard work of it. Overthinking.
The poor, uneducated in society would have lambasted mental calisthenics while you were still young. From the middle class up, we put thinking on a pedestal and worship those that are articulate.
You appear to have reached a pinnacle of articulateness. ..and now it is your prison.
What you desire is simple. Close. (closer than the nose on your face. - some have said)
It's so simple that you can't help but look past it. Over it.
Now i'm not meaning for you to regress into dumbness, as there's great entertainment value in thoughts and their contrivences.
The simple answer is don't believe any thought at face value. They are not your friend. They are your shackles.
Every time you find yourself listening to them with reverence, laugh and look to what sensations are present.
Do this for three days before posting again.
Oh, there will be some (occasionally) useful thoughts happening. See if you can identify what makes them useful.

love & compassion

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Do this for three days before posting again.

Roger Roger

[CapnBoomer]

Holly crap, Vince, what a mind mess! The thoughts in my head are a runaway train.

So what'd I find? Lots and lots of thought chatter..most of it coming on so fast and furious and crowded in that its hard to get a hold of any one that might be more revered than the others. There did emerge from that chaos a few different kinds of thoughts. The bulk of it was mindless, incoherent, background noise. .. a running commentary on everything. Then there were the useful ones and they were were mainly of a practical mundane sort...how to cook supper,time to water the garden..stuff like that. .... Useful for this avatar to interface with the world "program". The other thoughts are ones that were associated with feelings or emotions...that had some kind of charge with them. Those are the ones that I didnt take at face value and tried to see that I had put them on the Truth Pedestal and that I was believing in them but didnt realize it was just that ....a belief...and that belief could be questioned. This type of thought almost always came with some sort of bodily sensation. ... a tightness in my chest, a punch in the gut...a fuzzy light headedness. Thoughts like...your a looser...you should be doing something else...what are you doing thats useful...youre never going to get this....and they all seem so serious...not always successful at finding the laughter reaction to them. Actually rarely .

Which thoughts do I listen to with reverence ??? They all seem to inform, define, or reflect my perceptions in some way. It really feels like one big shit storm and damned near impossible to get a hold of anyone long enough for any kind of forensics before it gets knocked out by the constant torrent.

I can step back a bit right now from the whole mess and chuckle at the absurdity and the intricate genius madness of the web that has been created. I almost said "that I've created " but then realized thats taking way to much credit for something that has been in the works since the beginning of time ....and maybe even before that. Seeing it like that takes the "me" out of it all.

And then I look at the clock here and see that..."oh crap".... I'm "running late" and "need to go". Not that I have any real schedule...I dont...only the self imposed mind-fuck kind......."It never really ends does it??" I shake my head and chuckle to myself. What a game.

Much thanks

Bennett

[CapnBoomer]

Hello Again Vince

Something Ive been noticing quite a lot of late are stronger than usual feelings of being jaded, cynical, sarcastic, dismissive, judgmental.....about the current prevalent world view on , well, darn near everything...politics, war (now there's a real totally, avoidable and predictable mess), viruses and vaccines, causes of sickness and their prevention and cure....my ability to be of any meaningful use to the world.... and on and on. This has been part of my make up "all my life" but is really raging right now. And whats worse is I think to myself.. "And who in their right mind wouldn't be cynical and jaded about just a messed up world" And of course all these same feelings are directed at my ability to see what you and LU are pointing to...or even that its real or useful. What a bunch of woo-woo. Its a very broad brush and totally inclusive...the opposite of wearing rose colored glasses.

Funny thing is I dont feel especially depressed by all this. Just matter-of-fact about it. Like I'm just reporting on conditions that exist in a particular environment. .."oh, so that's what's going on here...very interesting"

The question arises...who ,or what, would he be without all this? and....who or what would he be if he didnt care whether it was here or not? What if it didnt matter either way?

Is any of this of any use?

Thanks again Vince

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

'evening Bennett,

I think to myself.. "And who in their right mind wouldn't be cynical and jaded about just a messed up world"

There's no denying that there's a lot fucked up at the moment. Hasn't it always been this way? ..and what makes it so much worse is (as you say) that it's all avoidable.
Who in their right mind (great saying) wouldn't want to fix it if they could?
How's it going for you, trying to fix it?
The best i could come up with was a useful story that went like this;
A sick body might exhibit symptoms of illness such as vomiting, fever, and diarrhea. These are the body's attempts to heal. As unpleasant as they might be, they are the body trying to expel and burn up toxins. The organism might succumb or heal.
i see the copious shit happening the world over as another organism (sic) attempting to heal.
It might happen in my lifetime, but history has me doubting that very strongly. It might never happen. The earth would be better off without humans, that's for sure.
It's not a great analogy and it doesn't give me comfort. It's just a story of meaning that is an attempt not to slide into suicidal depression.
i once thought of going into politics to try and change things, but realized that the system would swallow me and spit me out. Guiding has an element of salve. Maybe i can contribute to the healing, one (or three) person at a time.
It's easy for me to see that all of this fucked up shit, all of it, happened because of fucked up stories that people believe.
i remember clearly when i was about 10, saying to my mother (maybe i just thought it) that a mistake had been made. That i was not meant to be born to this world. That the one i was meant to go to was one where everybody was kind to everyone else. Noone had to do anything that they didn't want to do, and happiness was the normal.
So here i am, some 64 years later still believing that this is possible. Just that I'll probably never see it eventuate.

who or what would he be if he didn't care whether it was here or not?

Oh, i care. Like you, i find it interesting. ..and sad.

who ,or what, would he be without all this?

The "who, or what" is just as big a mystery with or without it. Experiencing would probably be different.

Is any of this of any use?

Yes, everything's of use.

So what'd I find? ...youre never going to get this

Oh you've got it. You're just not happy with it. You think that if you settle for this that you're shortchanging yourself.
Of course, this is my story about Bennett. i really have no idea about what is actual.

So what'd I find? Lots and lots of thought chatter..most of it coming on so fast and furious and crowded in that its hard to get a hold of any one that might be more revered than the others. There did emerge from that chaos a few different kinds of thoughts. The bulk of it was mindless, incoherent, background noise. .. a running commentary on everything. Then there were the useful ones and they were were mainly of a practical mundane sort...how to cook supper,time to water the garden..stuff like that. .... Useful for this avatar to interface with the world "program". The other thoughts are ones that were associated with feelings or emotions...that had some kind of charge with them. Those are the ones that I didnt take at face value and tried to see that I had put them on the Truth Pedestal and that I was believing in them but didnt realize it was just that ....a belief...and that belief could be questioned. This type of thought almost always came with some sort of bodily sensation. ... a tightness in my chest, a punch in the gut...a fuzzy light headedness. Thoughts like...your a looser...you should be doing something else...what are you doing thats useful...youre never going to get this....and they all seem so serious...

This is perfect. i just don't get why when you see this that something doesn't click and you relax and have freedom from those pesky stories. Jeez, you's have 85% more space. More quiet. More peace.
The thoughts won't stop instantly, but you can let them do their cloud thing and just float past with the occasional noticing.
Go to sleep every night with the thought that all thoughts are shit (and trust that the useful ones will make themselves known) That no thought is worthy of your focus or attention.
If thoughts seem too powerful to ignore, then bring your attention to sensation. That can take you out of the mind control situation.

with great love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Holy Crap Vince...Thats it!

Oh you've got it. You're just not happy with it. You think that if you settle for this that you're shortchanging yourself.

I've been looking for something, anything, other than THIS...Are you telling me THIS, the part I dont want to settle for, is IT? That its been there all this time?  Well of course it  has...of course it is, I am seeing that now.  What else is there...I mean really???  Its right the fuck HERE!!!  DUH Creation dont owe me nuthin. Nothing needs to change...how could it? Why would it?

Who in their right mind (great saying) wouldn't want to fix it if they could?
How's it going for you, trying to fix it?

Not so well...its like watching a movie and going up to the screen and trying to change things...very frustrating. Its a story that is playing itself out. Cant wait to see how it ends!

i just don't get why when you see this that something doesn't click and you relax and have freedom from those pesky stories.

You and me both,pal.

Go to sleep every night with the thought that all thoughts are shit (and trust that the useful ones will make themselves known) That no thought is worthy of your focus or attention.

The best (spiritual) advice or pointer I've ever gotten....all thoughts are shit. I love it. So simple...no wiggle room. I think I'll apply it during the day too.

The thoughts won't stop instantly, but you can let them do their cloud thing and just float past with the occasional noticing.

I'll use this...and this one

If thoughts seem too powerful to ignore, then bring your attention to sensation. That can take you out of the mind control situation.

I think we're definitely whittling away at this "me" story thing..... and all its stories and so called "effects"

Thanks for the assist

Bennett

[CapnBoomer]

Hey Vince...

I've been living with this beaut all day

That no thought is worthy of your focus or attention.

Just like that? NO thought...none...zero..The Bagel..no exceptions??!!!!!...no need to decipher or distinguish or consider..or nuthin...send them all to the rubbish bin. Ahh...what fun!! All the questions of why this or why not that, how come, it should, she shouldnt have, the world is, Truth is this or reality is that...they all go. God damned thats good!

Some of them are quite sticky but at this point I dont give a shit. Its not like they having feelings or somethin'.!

Is this true, or is that true????....I dont fucking know and I dont give a rats ass!! How liberating!

What a total Blast!
.

That no thought is worthy of your focus or attention.

Beautiful, simple, unambiguous.....perfect.

Big Love and Mucho Thanks

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Bennett,

Beautiful, simple, unambiguous.....perfect.

You too are that. Now enjoy & come back to me when the elation subsides.

Great love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hi Vince

I would call it a bit of stunned surprise and bewilderment, with a touch of "your kidding, right?" humor.....and "pinch me, am I dreaming" ( what a funny twist that saying is here) There is some elation in there for sure...that would be the freedom part shining thru. ITs still settling in and not fully established. A bit of back and forth. A bit of .".No,? wait....really?!!!!" and "yup, that thought too....onto the trash pile. Some of those can be quite stubborn!

It has started showing up in my night time dreams as well. Last night it was a full realization and great belly laughter and euphoria at seeing it all as a mind created dream. And everyone around me was taking it all soooooo seriously! I was dazed and free.

I'll let you know as things shift around.

This is awesome!....( and a not just a little disorienting)

Big Love and much Gratitude

Bennett