Stop Resisting

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

At last I'm back from hols and have decent WiFi.

. An interesting experience happened today during a yoga class. While lying in shavasana, awareness went wherever it went. Sounds, sensations, the breath, thoughts. The separation between "my body" and the floor seemed to fade away. There was just the room and everything in it, including the form which I call "my body." There were just sensations. No labeling or picturing of where they were. Sensations happened, thoughts sometimes occurred after the fact, but there was less of the locating/mapping happening, since there was no "boundary" of the body to be experienced

This sounds like a very expansive experience. How do things seem since this happened?

Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Good to hear. Thank you for taking time during your holiday to communicate with me.

This sounds like a very expansive experience. How do things seem since this happened?

During meditation, the "perceived" boundaries of this body continue to fade. Thoughts what arise to define the boundaries of “me” are just seen as thoughts. When sensations arise, there are still thoughts arising regarding the location/mapping of them, although they are starting to feel different, less “important” perhaps. Still looking for a separation between sensation and location, however it feels closer than last week.

Today I leave for another week of summer music camp, similar to the one a couple weeks ago. I will see the "self" asserts itself throughout the events of each day.

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. When sensations arise, there are still thoughts arising regarding the location/mapping of them, although they are starting to feel different, less “important” perhaps.

Sounds helpful and more relaxing?

. Still looking for a separation between sensation and location, however it feels closer than last week.

What might get noticed is the complete lack of separation. But I'm not sure I'd use the word 'location' because that introduces the whole idea of "things".

Keep with looking to see if there is any kind of gap between sensation ("blue", for example) and the experience of it. If this works more easily with sound, touch, smell or taste, feel free to look at those.

Have fun noticing how "self" appears during your camping week. I wish you good weather.

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon, I am back from camp.

Here are some things which were noticed during camp:

Sounds are now quite rarely startling, even if they are loud and unexpected. The "pure hearing" is starting to become more habitual, except when listening to music-either in a performance/recorded context or a teaching/rehearsal context. Music brings up the sense that "I am listening," "looking for something in the music," "creating an opinion," "listening for mistakes," or "analyzing" as opposed to just hearing sounds happening.

Time seemed to move at an even pace, regardless of what was happening. In the past, time seemed to either "fly by" or go by slowly. Sometimes thinking, "It's already Wednesday! It feels like we just got here," and other times thinking "We still have 2 hours left in practice." Days passed on as they did. There were no obligations of me or things for me to do, just whatever was needed and happening in that moment. There was no: "I like this activity," "I like this weather currently," or "I despise the sun and temperature right now," it just was. Pleasant or unpleasant.

There was an activity that was difficult to see through the self. Students and staff sat on the ground and closed their eyes. A handful would be standing up, walking around, and tapping people on the back who they chose for questions like: Someone who makes you smile, someone who has cool style, someone who is funny, someone you respect, and so on. I received shoulder taps for a variety of things. I could tell students and fellow staff look up to "me." Although this activity builds connection and self esteem, I had a feeling that it was also reinforcing the concept of a separate self; an individual "me" who has particular qualities. After feeling someone tap my shoulder, thoughts came up such as: "someone things I have cool hair, someone respects me, someone thinks I have an infectious laugh, someone wants to get to know me better, I make someone smile." I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.


Thank you for your patience,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss


Thank you for posting now that you are back from camp.

. The "pure hearing" is starting to become more habitual, except when listening to music-either in a performance/recorded context or a teaching/rehearsal context.

By 'habitual' do you mean that it's just happening , noticed but without being too much of a deliberate exercise?

I notice that you use the phrase 'pure hearing' but is there an implication that at other times, such as during teaching music or playing in front of others, hearing becomes in any sense 'impure'?

Would you say that at these kinds of times the difference is that , added on to the hearing there's a narrative about what's going on that references "I" (and possibly seems to 'spoil the spontenaiety'?). We talked about this before and I think it's at the heart of the matter for you?

What we must work towards, what is coming, is seeing clearly that the imagined "I" is simply not you. Never was, never will be and only ever appears as an idea or story ABOUT "a person, Nuss' that feels self-conscious, limited, or whatever.

. Time seemed to move at an even pace, regardless of what was happening. In the past, time seemed to either "fly by" or go by slowly.

That does sound good.

. After feeling someone tap my shoulder, thoughts came up such as: "someone things I have cool hair, someone respects me, someone thinks I have an infectious laugh, someone wants to get to know me better, I make someone smile." I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

These are all thought-references to "I". I'm guessing that there may also have been energetic sensations too, that seemed to accentuate the notion of a "me"?

So these thoughts or sensations seem to point to a "real self" but it is our job to take a look to find out if there is such a separate entity, or if it is always thoughts/sensations ? Thought-stories about a "me"?


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

By 'habitual' do you mean that it's just happening , noticed but without being too much of a deliberate exercise?

Is it possible for it to be a little bit of both? At times it feels that it is just happening, while other times a thought arises to "tune back into the now," or remembering the words you have written to me and to continue examining the experience of things - this feeling more like a deliberate exercise.

Although, a thought occurred that these "reminder thoughts" which arise also come and go on their own. Even if it feels like a deliberate exercise, there's really no "I" doing the exercise anyway, since it all came from a thought which arose from nowhere, correct? Perhaps this is just the momentum of answering your helpful questions and seeing things for what they are?

I notice that you use the phrase 'pure hearing' but is there an implication that at other times, such as during teaching music or playing in front of others, hearing becomes in any sense 'impure'?

Yes, absolutely. I find this especially when teaching: listening to the ensemble play, the self "looking" or "listening" for "corrections" to make or teachable moments/opportunities. Alternatively, focusing so much on my conducting of the group that I fail to notice many details of how they are actually playing the music. It's almost like I'm focusing so much on "being a teacher" and "conducting the group" that I forget to sit back and actually hear them for how they sound sometimes. I have noticed this over the last year and have since then practiced letting the groups play on without me at times or closing my eyes occasionally to allow for more attention to go to hearing.

Would you say that at these kinds of times the difference is that , added on to the hearing there's a narrative about what's going on that references "I" (and possibly seems to 'spoil the spontaneity'?). We talked about this before and I think it's at the heart of the matter for you?

Most definitely. "I am doing/need to do X," "I am good/not good at X," "am I enjoying X?" Or perhaps more judgmental: "I don't deserve X," "I don't belong here/there," "I'm a fraud," "I need to work on X," and so on.

What we must work towards, what is coming, is seeing clearly that the imagined "I" is simply not you. Never was, never will be and only ever appears as an idea or story ABOUT "a person, Nuss' that feels self-conscious, limited, or whatever.

I have found this more difficult as of late. My schedule is picking up with more teaching happening during the day and planning for the fall semester to begin and for me to return to face-to-face teaching full time in the classroom. All of the planning, preparing, and logistics create a scenario where the self kicks in with "I need to do this," "I need more time to figure this out," "I hope my students will listen to me this year," "What are my students going to think of me this year?" The thoughts are always churning about what is next to "do."

Seeing through the illusion of self seems easier when I am alone-obviously. As I interact with students more and more, often including activities which allow them to share their unique personalities and individuality, (which in turn causes me to as well) I feel the notion of self strongly reasserting itself.

These are all thought-references to "I". I'm guessing that there may also have been energetic sensations too, that seemed to accentuate the notion of a "me"?

So these thoughts or sensations seem to point to a "real self" but it is our job to take a look to find out if there is such a separate entity, or if it is always thoughts/sensations ? Thought-stories about a "me"?

Correct. They were appealing stories about "me" along with an excitement or happiness felt when a touch was received. It has caused me to think: I have considered thought-stories about "me" which have come from "me," but what about other people? What about the things people say to me in appreciation for being a friend, teacher, role model, or what I have done for them? These are all thoughts and stories, yet they can seem more appealing to the self because they are from others.

Thank you,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

I must just ask you to look at the possibility that you think that self-inquiry is about somehow getting rid of self, or of all self-referencing thoughts? Or somehow developing an insight that will mean that there can no longer be any thoughts about self?

Not only is this not what we are aiming for but it is not necessary, even if it were achievable. It doesn't have to be.

How do you feel about what I have said?

. Seeing through the illusion of self seems easier when I am alone-obviously. As I interact with students more and more, often including activities which allow them to share their unique personalities and individuality, (which in turn causes me to as well) I feel the notion of self strongly reasserting itself.

I understand. But this is only a 'problem' for an imagined self conceived to exist among other imagined selves.

There are no selves. Only imagined selves. And yes, the illusion appears good and strong as if it were reality because it's an engrossing story in full swing. So much noise , so many unique personalities, so many self-referencing thoughts.

These would be a problem if it were imagined that within all this there is a real someone that could get caught up. Since that seems to be the experience the only thing for it is to really track down that one. Don't bother with any more exercises for now. Just look for the one that gets caught up or messed up. This may not be particularly comfortable to do so let me know how it goes?

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

I'm wondering how it's going?

I realise that what I said may have seemed rather strong and blunt. It wasn't meant to be in any way a criticism (just in case you felt that it was). I think that you are doing very well.

But how do you feel about what I have said / suggested ? Have you been able to take a look?

Best wishes

Jon

[Nuss]

I realise that what I said may have seemed rather strong and blunt. It wasn't meant to be in any way a criticism (just in case you felt that it was). I think that you are doing very well.

It wasn't taken as criticism. I was what needed to be said, so I appreciate you saying it. It feels as if I'm "chasing my tail" at this point, only the ironic thing is there was no tail in the first place.

I must just ask you to look at the possibility that you think that self-inquiry is about somehow getting rid of self, or of all self-referencing thoughts? Or somehow developing an insight that will mean that there can no longer be any thoughts about self?
How do you feel about what I have said?

Yes, there is a feeling that this method of direct inquiry will "get rid of the self," as opposed to seeing that there was not one in the first place. It comes back to something said much earlier in our conversation-having conceptual understanding of something, but not fully accepting or seeing it. It still feels quite close.

These would be a problem if it were imagined that within all this there is a real someone that could get caught up. Since that seems to be the experience the only thing for it is to really track down that one. Don't bother with any more exercises for now. Just look for the one that gets caught up or messed up. This may not be particularly comfortable to do so let me know how it goes?

I'm sorry for taking so long to respond. I didn't want to send a response until there was a feeling that I had something worth sending to you. I didn't want to waste your time with another message saying "still looking for it." I have been pondering this question for a while: "Who is it that is getting 'caught up' or 'off-track?'" Nothing can be found. It seems so simple, yet "something" is hanging on. "Who is hanging on?" Still nothing!

Please know that I really am taking your help very seriously, and because so I want to make sure my responses are worthwhile.

*There was also quite a lot of work to be done this past week in preparations for school to start next week. That took most of the time out of day, yet there were still many moments where the "self" attempted to assert itself.

Thank you for your continued efforts with me, Jon

Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Thank you for your continued efforts with me, Jon

Well, it's absolutely my pleasure.

. It wasn't taken as criticism. I was what needed to be said, so I appreciate you saying it. It feels as if I'm "chasing my tail" at this point, only the ironic thing is there was no tail in the first place.

Let's see about this. You're right about no tail but maybe the "chasing" bit can be addressed.

. Yes, there is a feeling that this method of direct inquiry will "get rid of the self," as opposed to seeing that there was not one in the first place. It comes back to something said much earlier in our conversation-having conceptual understanding of something, but not fully accepting or seeing it. It still feels quite close.

Ok. Well, conceptualising about existence of self, (or not) can seem like tail-chasing, until it subsides or gets dropped.

I think you're onto something about needing to notice that there never was one. But consider; if there was or is a self, then how could it be gotten rid of?

Getting rid might conceivably be an option, like throwing out something that's really "there," in the first place, (like a bag of rubbish from the kitchen or an old record-player, for example). But it seems particularly hard to find this "self" . Hmm.

. I'm sorry for taking so long to respond. I didn't want to send a response until there was a feeling that I had something worth sending to you. I didn't want to waste your time with another message saying "still looking for it." I have been pondering this question for a while: "Who is it that is getting 'caught up' or 'off-track?'" Nothing can be found. It seems so simple, yet "something" is hanging on. "Who is hanging on?" Still nothing!

I felt that you were probably giving it the necessary time and I appreciate your thorough approach.

But yes. What is it about that hanging on and still nothing?

. Please know that I really am taking your help very seriously, and because so I want to make sure my responses are worthwhile.

This has always been clear Nuss. Thank you.

. There was also quite a lot of work to be done this past week in preparations for school to start next week. That took most of the time out of day, yet there were still many moments where the "self" attempted to assert itself.

If you've ever grappled with shoelaces that have become knotted, or any kind of knot in string, its a little like this. The knot doesn't 'exist' as such (except as an idea). It's not really a thing that's "there". Of course, for practical purposes we use the label "Knot" to describe this kind of situation. But in reality It's string or laces that have become criss-crossed or looped tightly (I realise that this too can be refuted and that only sensations are actually experienced and that is worth investigating too, but bear with me)...

Investigation into "self" can be like wishing a "thing" to go away or dissolve and tugging at the strings only makes the knotty sensation or perception seem tighter.

There's a key for every lock. There's a way of relaxing or "seeing" which is basically to stop tugging. The "knot" doesn't immediately disappear (usually). Why should it? It keeps appearing. The universe has given this odd situation somehow and there's always the possibility of viewing it as a problem. But it's the fixation with a me-problem and the tendency to feel that it's a real problem for someone that may hurt.
But when faced with a knot, relaxing and taking an interest, rather than straining, can help.

So how to stop seeking? How to stop trying to get rid of self?

Well, you can't, can you?

That's a blessing actually.


Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

I left you with a cliff-hanger that may not have made sense...

. So how to stop seeking? How to stop trying to get rid of self?

Well, you can't, can you?

That's a blessing actually.

What was I driving at here?


With ove

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

I think you're onto something about needing to notice that there never was one. But consider; if there was or is a self, then how could it be gotten rid of?

Getting rid might conceivably be an option, like throwing out something that's really "there," in the first place, (like a bag of rubbish from the kitchen or an old record-player, for example). But it seems particularly hard to find this "self" . Hmm.

Yes. If it's really there, yet also particularly difficult to find this self, can it really be gotten rid of? Perhaps not. If it's truly not there, then it would have never been there to begin with.

There's a key for every lock. There's a way of relaxing or "seeing" which is basically to stop tugging. The "knot" doesn't immediately disappear (usually). Why should it? It keeps appearing. The universe has given this odd situation somehow and there's always the possibility of viewing it as a problem. But it's the fixation with a me-problem and the tendency to feel that it's a real problem for someone that may hurt.

When seeking answers for your questions, it often feels as if I am "trying" or "striving." A lot of what I have accomplished in life has been through time and effort. When I read this above paragraph the thought occurred: "What should I do then?" Just sit with the same questions, but with more of an inquisitive or investigative type of attitude, as opposed to seeking or striving?

But when faced with a knot, relaxing and taking an interest, rather than straining, can help.
So how to stop seeking? How to stop trying to get rid of self?
Well, you can't, can you?
What was I driving at here?

I have two possible interpretations from this:
1. You can't stop trying to get rid of something that wasn't/isn't there to begin with.
2. If you are "trying" to "get rid" of self, it will not go away in that fashion. That will only tighten the knot, as you say. "Trying to get rid of the self" is only reinforcing that "I" am "'doing" something.

Is that what you meant?

With gratitude,

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. 1. You can't stop trying to get rid of something that wasn't/isn't there to begin with.
2. If you are "trying" to "get rid" of self, it will not go away in that fashion. That will only tighten the knot, as you say. "Trying to get rid of the self" is only reinforcing that "I" am "'doing" something.

Is that what you meant?

Yes that's it.

. When seeking answers for your questions, it often feels as if I am "trying" or "striving." A lot of what I have accomplished in life has been through time and effort. When I read this above paragraph the thought occurred: "What should I do then?" Just sit with the same questions, but with more of an inquisitive or investigative type of attitude, as opposed to seeking or striving?

Yes, it's a very common idea that things must be made to happen by a 'someone' , via a lot of time and effort, but this is not very helpful here.

You already started in this direction earlier , by relaxing the tendency to painstakingly note every sensation.

Yes indeed, an inquisitive or investigative attitude is great. It can be enjoyable. Playful, even. To some extent, even, just allow inquisitiveness to happen rather than "making it happen".

See if it's possible to let go of striving? If striving reasserts its self then ok, that's what happened, but don't add to striving and don't resist the appearance of striving.

Even resistance can happen without a 'self' to do the resisting, so if that crops up just notice it as you might notice ripples in a pond.


Let me know how this adjustment in approach goes?

With love

Jon

Let me know how this adjustment in approach goes.

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

Yes indeed, an inquisitive or investigative attitude is great. It can be enjoyable. Playful, even. To some extent, even, just allow inquisitiveness to happen rather than "making it happen".

See if it's possible to let go of striving? If striving reasserts its self then ok, that's what happened, but don't add to striving and don't resist the appearance of striving.

Even resistance can happen without a 'self' to do the resisting, so if that crops up just notice it as you might notice ripples in a pond.

Over the last few days I have started allowing inquisitiveness to set in, not just for the most recent question(s) you have asked, but also in noticing other experiences-sights, sounds, etc. If inquisitiveness was only allowed for the specific questions, then perhaps it would create more conditions for striving. Although striving still occurs, it is slowly starting to feel more relaxed.

Over the last month or so it has become apparent that the relationship with "my body" has changed. When I look in the mirror, it doesn't seem as much like "me" anymore. I mean, it's the collection of parts which sum up this body, but it feels less like "my arm, my fingers, my face." They are just arms, fingers, and this face, which happens to be the ones "I" have been using and identifying with for the last 30 years.

This evening I sat at the window, looking out into the city, seeing, hearing, feeling. The question returned, "Who is it that is getting caught up/messed up?" "Who is it that has things yet to do?" The familiar silence returned, still nothing to be found. Experience grew clearer and more vivid. For a moment, a burning sensation surged inside. A question arose: If "I" am not this body, can "I" be these thoughts, can "I" be this mind? Stillness set in. A few tears ran down my face. No feelings attached to them, just tears.

Earlier in our discussion you mentioned that I be careful of "I am not ____" statements, as they could reinforce a sense of "I" somewhere else. However, the questions listed above felt right in that moment. I'm curious what you think about that.


With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Earlier in our discussion you mentioned that I be careful of "I am not ____" statements, as they could reinforce a sense of "I" somewhere else. However, the questions listed above felt right in that moment. I'm curious what you think about that.

To be honest I can't remember exactly where I suggested that. I'd say this to someone, probably, to draw attention to the possibility of 'knowing' that there's supposed to be no self, and saying so, without really seeing clearly that there is no self and never has been one. There's a big difference. Intellectual understanding and identification with the idea "I don't exist" or "there's no me" can be a roadblock to "seeing" no self as an actuality. Does this make sense?

. Over the last few days I have started allowing inquisitiveness to set in, not just for the most recent question(s) you have asked, but also in noticing other experiences-sights, sounds, etc. If inquisitiveness was only allowed for the specific questions, then perhaps it would create more conditions for striving. Although striving still occurs, it is slowly starting to feel more relaxed

That's a good development

. Over the last month or so it has become apparent that the relationship with "my body" has changed. When I look in the mirror, it doesn't seem as much like "me" anymore. I mean, it's the collection of parts which sum up this body, but it feels less like "my arm, my fingers, my face." They are just arms, fingers, and this face, which happens to be the ones "I" have been using and identifying with for the last 30 years.

Also good investigation.

. This evening I sat at the window, looking out into the city, seeing, hearing, feeling. The question returned, "Who is it that is getting caught up/messed up?" "Who is it that has things yet to do?" The familiar silence returned, still nothing to be found. Experience grew clearer and more vivid. For a moment, a burning sensation surged inside. A question arose: If "I" am not this body, can "I" be these thoughts, can "I" be this mind? Stillness set in. A few tears ran down my face. No feelings attached to them, just tears.

Lovely. And you could try this modification to those questions:

"What is it that is getting caught up / messed up?"

"What is it that has things to do?"

Notice what it's like to ask these variations.

Very well done with your relaxing and inquisitiveness. I'm sure it pays off.

Love

Jon