Looking for Guidance

[LosingIt]

Can you find any sign or presence of an I in awareness apart from thoughts of I?

No Awareness is Awareness. When awareness is being experienced there is no I, and rarely any thoughts of I. And if there were a thought of I it would eventually just float away like the thought of a cat or an ice cream cone or a pencil, etc.

When you are identified with the story of the Paul where is your sense of self located?Is it in the thoughts or is it in physical sensations?

It feels like it's behind my eyes and between my ears, and flowing around in the stories/thoughts of Paul. It also feels like it's in other people's thoughts and stories about Paul (I know I'm projecting. I cannot read other's minds). It is not in my physical sensations unless I attach a Paul or "I" to them.

What happens to awareness when you become identified with the story?

This question is very good. Hmmm. I can't say that awareness goes away. There is awarness, but the story of Paul takes center stage in awareness, and I'm not as aware of my senses, because I'm lost in the thought of Paul.

When you think of the story of Paul is it purely in the form of thoughts (words/images) or are there physical sensations present?

I would say that it is purely in the form of thoughts/words/images. Physical sensations could not indicate a "Paul", only if I say "I" am feeling this and attach Paul to the physical sensations.

What power does a thought have? Can a thought provoke a physical reaction? Is it possible to have the same thought without a physical reaction?

Thoughts seem to conjure more thoughts. A thought about a scary situation could provoke feelings of fear and anxiety in the body. I think that if you desensitize yourself to a thought (by perhaps having had similar thoughts in the past, that you would be less likely to have any kind of physical reaction). The thought of me stubbing my toe might make me cringe, but it will not literally make my toe hurt like I had just stubbed it. If I thought 20 times a day about stubbing my toe, I think, after a short time, I would no longer cringe at the thought.

[amrita]

Hey,

Thoughts seem to conjure more thoughts. A thought about a scary situation could provoke feelings of fear and anxiety in the body. I think that if you desensitize yourself to a thought (by perhaps having had similar thoughts in the past, that you would be less likely to have any kind of physical reaction). The thought of me stubbing my toe might make me cringe, but it will not literally make my toe hurt like I had just stubbed it. If I thought 20 times a day about stubbing my toe, I think, after a short time, I would no longer cringe at the thought.

Maybe a useful metaphor is to notice the difference between watching a film that you believe and identify with compared to watching a film that is not believable and seems meaningless (and so is much harder to enjoy).

So what you are saying is that some thoughts (usually about the I/me) have the power to cause physical reactions and some thoughts don't have any effect at all. What is about the particular thoughts of I/me/mine that have the power to cause effect when the thoughts themselves are empty symbols (words/images)?

What does sensation know about thought?

What does thought know about sensation?

[LosingIt]

So what you are saying is that some thoughts (usually about the I/me) have the power to cause physical reactions and some thoughts don't have any effect at all. What is about the particular thoughts of I/me/mine that have the power to cause effect when the thoughts themselves are empty symbols (words/images)?

I think that when we identify with a thought (claim it as I/me/mine) somehow an emotion gets invested in it, or there is an emotional charge. I really don't know why. Maybe when when we attribute I/me/mine to a thought or symbol or to the ego, it becomes "personal" and there is this fear of loss/death/disrespect (of the ego). When you "own" something, you can also lose it. And the ego fears losing things. Or has been taught to fear loss.

What does sensation know about thought?

A sensation can only sense, it cannot "know" anything about an abstract concept such as a thought/symbol.

What does thought know about sensation?

A sensation just is sensing, but thoughts can arise and add all kinds of judgements about what is being sensed: good sights, bad sights, euphoric feelings, depressive feelings, delightful touches, painful touches, etc. And when you identify with the idea that there is an "I" experiencing these senses, you create this alleged central location that is sensing and judging everything.

Anyways, looking at the question again, I'm not sure that a thought can really "know" anything about a sensation. The senses sense the sensations. Thoughts are just labels. Very finite labels for sensed experiences.

Maybe a useful metaphor is to notice the difference between watching a film that you believe and identify with compared to watching a film that is not believable and seems meaningless (and so is much harder to enjoy).

Not sure if you wanted me to respond to this. If I watch Pulp Fiction, I become engrossed in the story/plot, characters, dialogue, etc. Watching an episode of Friends I tend to deconstruct everything, the bad writing, acting, the product placements, and the laugh track. Even the commercials. I'm very conscious of how contrived everything is. (Hope you're not a Friends fan...) :)

[amrita]

Hey, I am much more pulp fiction than I am friends :)

If we take what you say...

Not sure if you wanted me to respond to this. If I watch Pulp Fiction, I become engrossed in the story/plot, characters, dialogue, etc. Watching an episode of Friends I tend to deconstruct everything, the bad writing, acting, the product placements, and the laugh track. Even the commercials. I'm very conscious of how contrived everything is. (Hope you're not a Friends fan...) :)

In terms of looking at a screen to watch films or shows what is experienced? Colours/shapes and sounds. When you watch Pulp fiction are the actors/characters with you in the room? are they real in any way apart from in your imagination?

In terms of DE what is experienced? colours/shapes, sounds, sensations. thoughts. Are you real in any way apart from in your imagination?

[LosingIt]

In terms of looking at a screen to watch films or shows what is experienced? Colours/shapes and sounds. When you watch Pulp fiction are the actors/characters with you in the room? are they real in any way apart from in your imagination?

The characters are not real apart from my imagination. They are not with me in the room.

In terms of DE what is experienced? colours/shapes, sounds, sensations. thoughts. Are you real in any way apart from in your imagination?

I understand intellectually that I am not real in any way apart from my imagination. Paul is a collection of stories, images, rememberances.

[amrita]

Hi,

I understand intellectually that I am not real in any way apart from my imagination. Paul is a collection of stories, images, rememberances.

So what is the glue that holds together the imaginal self of stories, images, memories? Can you find in DE the anchor which holds together the fiction that "Paul" exists?

I hope you have a great holiday/trip wherever you go. Please post back when you can and we can carry on this conversation (if that is something you want to do).

Go well

Amrita x

[LosingIt]

So what is the glue that holds together the imaginal self of stories, images, memories? Can you find in DE the anchor which holds together the fiction that "Paul" exists?

There is no glue that holds the imagined self of stories,images,and memories, ultimately. It's just random stories, images in memories stored in the brain, and they appear when they want to.

I definitely cannot find the anchor in DE that holds together the fiction that Paul exists.

I had a safe trip to my relatives, and am enjoying their company. I very much wish to continue the conversation. Obviously, being around relatives, they "confirm" the story/ies that "Paul" exists. It's very strange.

[amrita]

Hi,

I hope you are still enjoying your trip.

When you say...

There is no glue that holds the imagined self of stories,images,and memories, ultimately. It's just random stories, images in memories stored in the brain, and they appear when they want to.

I definitely cannot find the anchor in DE that holds together the fiction that Paul exists.

So do you exist in any form whatsoever?

Do you exist in your reflection in the mirror?

Do you exist in thoughts you have about yourself

Do you exist in thoughts other people have about you?

I had a safe trip to my relatives, and am enjoying their company. I very much wish to continue the conversation. Obviously, being around relatives, they "confirm" the story/ies that "Paul" exists. It's very strange.

Do you feel there is a self in response to your relatives confirmation of your story/existence?

[LosingIt]

I am back, and I had a great trip. I am looking forward to continuing the looking.

So do you exist in any form whatsoever?

Do you exist in your reflection in the mirror?

Do you exist in thoughts you have about yourself

Do you exist in thoughts other people have about you?

No, I do not exist in any form, I do not exist in my reflection in the mirror, nor in my thoughts about myself, nor in the thoughts other people have about me.

Do you feel there is a self in response to your relatives confirmation of your story/existence?

Well, when I was in their presence, I felt somewhat hypnotized by their words about my "self", but if I analyze the situation, no there is no self in response to their "confirmation" of my story/existence.

I had a few moments when hiking down a small mountain where I realized that there was no "I" moving my legs, and that nothing appeared to be in charge of the sounds and motions of the forest surrounding "me".

[amrita]

Hey welcome back, I am glad you had a good trip :)

This sounds great...

I had a few moments when hiking down a small mountain where I realized that there was no "I" moving my legs, and that nothing appeared to be in charge of the sounds and motions of the forest surrounding "me

What we are looking at is the illusion that there is an "I" that controls or moves things so in that sense it sounds like you are beginning to see there is no I that does anything. Everything (life) just arises and happens.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[LosingIt]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not, and there never was. I still have been falling into the I illusion. I've been doing a lot more stopping during the day to ask about my own behavior. Is there an "I" controlling it? And I don't find one. I also ask it about the weather, the wind, other people's behavior. Is there anyone controlling it? This is helping me a lot.

But when I'm not pausing to ask and answer the questions, I seem to be in I/me/mine mode still.

I've been realizing more and more that keeping up with world events is somehow an attempt to exert some kind of delusional control over them. I have been the type of person that whats to know everything about everything. And it's really just about my (nonexistent) ego wanting to impress other (nonexistent) egos. It's just a game. I'm not against knowledge, but if the acquisition of knowledge is an attempt to ultimately somehow control other people, the planet, the universe, or the future then it is a useless endeavor (nothing is in control, everything is just happening). Trying to stay on top of every detail about the world is an exhausting endeavor, which creates tension, and prevents the stopping and looking at what is right now.

[amrita]

Hi,

This all sounds very promising :). One thought I have which I would like to share with you is that sometimes people come into this process and expect a Big Bang type revelation (and it can be like that for a few) but more usually the seeing that there is no self or I at the centre of experience is a quiet, subtle observation. Sometimes the expectation of ground shifting fireworks stops us seeing what is right in front of us.

When you say...

But when I'm not pausing to ask and answer the questions, I seem to be in I/me/mine mode still.

How do you know you are in the I/me/mine mode? What are the characteristics of this mode rather than being in open DE?

Is the sense of being an I/me more a sensation or a thought?

[LosingIt]

Sorry for the delay....

One thought I have which I would like to share with you is that sometimes people come into this process and expect a Big Bang type revelation (and it can be like that for a few) but more usually the seeing that there is no self or I at the centre of experience is a quiet, subtle observation. Sometimes the expectation of ground shifting fireworks stops us seeing what is right in front of us.

I wouldn't say that I was ever expecting a Big Bang, but I still feel that I haven't fully experienced IT yet. I've been looking a lot lately. I'm not going to describe them but I've been having various strange synchonicities almost every day. I usually take these as good omens... My dreams have also been about looking, and at times seeing. Maybe I'm looking to hard, because I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm focussing on what DE are happening.

When you say...

" But when I'm not pausing to ask and answer the questions, I seem to be in I/me/mine mode still."

How do you know you are in the I/me/mine mode? What are the characteristics of this mode rather than being in open DE?

Is the sense of being an I/me more a sensation or a thought?

I feel that I know I'm in I/me/mine mode because I seem to find myself wrapped up in a story about myself, my thoughts, my possessions, my past, my future, the drama of my life (nothing too dramatic, thankfully).

But, yes, these are thoughts, not DE. But they seem to overly fill up my consciousness still, much of the time.

[amrita]

Hi,

So what happens when you "identify" with a thought as opposed to being simply aware of a thought?

I feel that I know I'm in I/me/mine mode because I seem to find myself wrapped up in a story about myself, my thoughts, my possessions, my past, my future, the drama of my life (nothing too dramatic, thankfully).

But, yes, these are thoughts, not DE. But they seem to overly fill up my consciousness still, much of the time.

Is is possible to have a thought about yourself without becoming "wrapped up" in it?

What happens when "you" become "wrapped up" in these stories? What is happening in your actual experience when this happens?

To be clear, actual experience is physical sensations, colours, sounds, smells, tastes and thoughts. What else can be experienced? So what happens in your actual experience when you become identified in these stories about yourself?

[LosingIt]

So what happens when you "identify" with a thought as opposed to being simply aware of a thought?

I take the thought seriously as a thing (in the material world, or nearly material), as opposed to just a symbol that represents an actual thing.

Is is possible to have a thought about yourself without becoming "wrapped up" in it?

Yes, I just feel that I haven't exerted much control over which thoughts I take seriously and which thoughts I create distance from.

To be clear, actual experience is physical sensations, colours, sounds, smells, tastes and thoughts. What else can be experienced?

I guess, beyond physical sensations, I experience or am aware of thoughts, symbols, and words arising in consciousnes. I don't experence in physical reality what these thoughts are referring to/symbolizing, of course. If I imagine falling off a tall building, I don't die or seriously injure myself. But if I really imagine a thought and take it seriously I could experience physical and/or mental discomfort.

So what happens in your actual experience when you become identified in these stories about yourself?

These stories do not become reality, but they may influence my psychology/mood. Thinking about the wind will not cause the hair on my head to move about, however. Imagining someone chasing me with a knife might cause me to worry or have a fear response in my body/mind. But again, I am in no real risk of bodily harm.