Looking for Guidance

[LosingIt]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the Me/I/Mine self is a fiction, a set of memories/patterns that gets identified with and clung to. One identifies with this fictional self and its story and all sorts of other fictions arise to support it.

What are you looking for at LU?
To dispel the illusion of the self, to be free of some of the burdens of the self. I feel, like many others, that I understand what LU is doing on an intellectual level, but not experientially. So I'm looking for someone to help guide me towards the experiencing of no-self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Helpful pointers to help dispel the illusion of self. Some questions to help with my particular brand of resistance. I've read some of the Gateless Gatecrashers conversations and feel I could benefit from a similar conversation that leads to inquiry about the self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was raised in a strict fundamentalist Christian home starting at age 10, and I left my church when I was 18 (as soon as I could). The experience was overall negative and has prejudiced me against joining any religion since. I am middle-aged now, and I have had a steady meditation practice (mindfulness) for the last 5 months (I've dabbled off and on with meditation before, but this has been my longest unbroken stint). I've read "I Am That", and I've read and listened to many of the works of Alan Watts. I've read "The Power of Now". I read a lot of J Krishnamurti in college. I've experimented with psychedelics, but it has been a long time since I did them. I've had moments where I feel the self has dissipated for awhile, but then it seems to come right back.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[amrita]

Hi, I am happy to guide you if you like :). If you are happy to go ahead please post back and we can begin.

Best

Amrita

[LosingIt]

Thank you for replying to me. I am here and ready to start the discussion/exchange/exploration.

[amrita]

Great! Let's jump right in...

Let's start by examining what your expectations are of this process.

What do you hope to get though this process? Do you have any fears about this process? What do you think will be different for you if you see there is no "I" or "self" to be found anywhere?

[LosingIt]

Great! Let's jump right in...

Let's start by examining what your expectations are of this process.

What do you hope to get though this process? Do you have any fears about this process? What do you think will be different for you if you see there is no "I" or "self" to be found anywhere?

What do you hope to get though this process?

I feel that I understand the "direct experience" component correctly: The word is not the thing, the menu is not the meal. And I feel that I have had zen-like experiences where I stop conceptualizing for a few moments and just experience "what is" through my senses, non judgementally. But this is very fleeting, and then the "I" comes back, and I am labelling things, judging things, and wanting to control things, and feeling that I can actually control things. So, I'm hoping to be lead down a path of being able to experience this non-verbal, non-ego centered reality in a more intense manner, in a manner that is strong enough that even if I slip back into "I-me-mine" mode every now and again, I will not be able to take it so seriously.
No, I do not think that this will end all my problems and make me invincible, but I would hope, again, that it would help me cast my drama and the human drama I observe daily, in a more light manner.

Do you have any fears about this process?

My only fears would be around "not getting it", not being able to understand what you are communicating. Of sincerely looking and not being able to see and experience what you are pointing to. I hope to not frustrate you. And maybe I fear that parts of my personality, both good and bad, that I am attached to, presently, would go way or fade away, and maybe people would perceive me negatively.

What do you think will be different for you if you see there is no "I" or "self" to be found anywhere?

Again, I would hope that I wouldn't take my life drama as seriously. Maybe have an increased awareness of the beauty of the mundane and the present moment. Maybe I would slow down a little and be less of a perfectionist. Not disregard my overall well-being, but just not worry about it as much.

[amrita]

Hey, thanks for your thoughtful answers.

btw do you have a name I can address you with or would you like me to call you "losingit"?

I'm sure you know the essence of this inquiry is experiential. It's not intellectual or interested in discussing various models of non-duality. The inquiry is about "looking" or exploring one's actual experience of the here and now in order to see there is no self or I at the centre of experience. I found this process so helpful and "liberating" that I am willing to give a bit of my time to share it with others in a free and openhanded manner so please feel free to ask any questions as we go along. The inquiry takes the form of the guide asking questions or giving pointers for you to go away and explore and then respond to.

It would be good if we can make a commitment to each other to try and post at least once a day to keep the conversation alive as it were. The "looking" takes a certain amout of energy and focus which is best sustained through our dialouge so its good to report back as often as you can. I'm sure you know the inquiry takes the form of the guide asking questions or suggesting exercises and you reporting back on how you you got on with them.

As an opening question, what is the difference between direct experience (of the physical senses) and thinking about experience?

[LosingIt]

btw do you have a name I can address you with or would you like me to call you "losingit"?

You may call me "Paul". Thanks.

The inquiry is about "looking" or exploring one's actual experience of the here and now in order to see there is no self or I at the centre of experience. I found this process so helpful and "liberating" that I am willing to give a bit of my time to share it with others in a free and openhanded manner so please feel free to ask any questions as we go along.

Will do. Thank you.

It would be good if we can make a commitment to each other to try and post at least once a day to keep the conversation alive as it were. The "looking" takes a certain amout of energy and focus which is best sustained through our dialouge so its good to report back as often as you can. I'm sure you know the inquiry takes the form of the guide asking questions or suggesting exercises and you reporting back on how you you got on with them.

I am committed to posting at least once a day.

As an opening question, what is the difference between direct experience (of the physical senses) and thinking about experience?

Direct experience is something that is actually happening. If I actually hold an orange in my hand and use my senses to experience it, I am actually experiencing it's weight, it's texture, it's smell, it's color; and if I peeled it and took a bite, I would actually be tasting the orange and feel it in my mouth, chewing it and interacting with it. If you told me to just imagine or think about an orange, the orange I imagined would just be symbols in my mind, memories and associations about what an orange "is", there would be no direct experience of the orange.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

Your description of Direct experience is very good...

Direct experience is something that is actually happening. If I actually hold an orange in my hand and use my senses to experience it, I am actually experiencing it's weight, it's texture, it's smell, it's color; and if I peeled it and took a bite, I would actually be tasting the orange and feel it in my mouth, chewing it and interacting with it. If you told me to just imagine or think about an orange, the orange I imagined would just be symbols in my mind, memories and associations about what an orange "is", there would be no direct experience of the orange

The "seeing" that there is no self, I occurs in DE (direct experience) rather than in thoughts so the inquiry is essentially a way of practicing being in DE rather than in thoughts/thinking/symbolised experience if that makes sense.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Practice this as much as you can throughout the day and post back about how you found this when you are ready.

Love

amrita

[LosingIt]

[quoteSo for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Practice this as much as you can throughout the day and post back about how you found this when you are ready.][/quote]

I wasn't as able to do this yesterday as much as I would have liked, so I will be doing it much moreso today and will report back tomorrow.
Thank you.

[LosingIt]

I'm back.

So, I find this difficult. I think what I strive for every time I meditate is to go into this realm of direct experience/non labeling/non judging. Yes, in my sitting meditations, but also in my day to day attempts at meditating while going about my day to day tasks. And sometimes I am successful. The "coffee cup" is a texture on my fingertips, and a sensation of heat, the view/image of a shape. The smell is not "Colombian fragrant coffee" but is a smell unto itself, a reaction in the nose. Or when meditating, with my eyes closed, I am just seeing the display of light and darkness and amorphous shapes dancing, and feeling the air go in and out of my nostrils without saying "air" or "coolness" or "warmth". And I achieve a certain level of relaxation. But the issue is, it never sustains itself. Words and judgements and labels rush in as quick as they can to fill this vacuum.

You said I could ask questions. So I'll try to formulate one, even though I find the subject difficult to explain/describe and talk about (because words don't always adequately describe states of consciousness nor experiences). I've read half of gateless gate crashers and listened to all 10 "Enlightening Quotes" episodes of the Liberation Unleashed Podcast. I think what may help me the most is getting me to search for the "I" or the "me" that I think is in charge of everything.

So when I search for the "I" I tend to think that I find him. I imagine that the "I" is my brain, or some guy behind my eyes (I think most Western people tend to do this). What throws my "I" for a loop is when someone asks (or I ask myself) "Who is choosing these thoughts as they arise?" When did I decide to worry about my upcoming job interview? When did I decide to think about this or that political personality? Well, the answer, if I'm honest (and I try to be) is: I didn't choose them, these thoughts just arose of their own volition. And then I ask myself "Can I choose what I will think about tomorrow?" And, in a way I can. I could decide that tomorrow at 8am I'll read such and such a book and contemplate what the author is trying to say. And 8am tomorrow arrives and I read that author and think about his statements/positions/thoughts. But then, I have to ask myself, "Why did I choose this particular author?" and "Why did I choose to think about this topic at 8am tomorrow?" "And how does this prove I have any free will whatsoever". The "choice" to choose a particular author, it just arose. I could have chosen a different author, or even a different exercise altogether. Like, instead, I will play basketball tomorrow and try to improve my shot." Why did I choose basketball and not juggling? The thought just arose.

So, I can contemplate these things over and over, and understand them intellectually, and sometimes I even arrive at some kind of transcendent state where I feel that I'm no longer me. But then again, it doesn't last long before words, labels, and judgements come back in, and now I am Paul, with this job, with these roles, with these political and philosophical opinions, with these favorite foods, and likes/dislikes, and worries, etc.

Anyways, after reading the above. Feel free to give me some exercises to search deeper for the I. Or, feel free to point me in a direction that you think would be most beneficial. Thank you!

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

There is a lot in your response which I can pick up on (and we will in time) but lets start with another practical exercise to see how you get on...

If you close your eyes and "look" or become aware of the sensations in your body can you find any self or I within any of those sensations? Do these sensations belong to "you" or are there just simply sensations arising within awareness?

With your eyes closed touch something. Can you describe what the sensations are like? If you push against something with your hand can you experience your hand separately from the thing you are pushing against or are there just sensations? Is there a self or I anywhere to be found in the sensations?

As you go about your daily life, try closing your eyes at different times of day whilst engaging in different activities and pay attention to the sensations. Can you find a separate self anywhere within the experience of physical sensations?

Love

Amrita

[LosingIt]

If you close your eyes and "look" or become aware of the sensations in your body can you find any self or I within any of those sensations? Do these sensations belong to "you" or are there just simply sensations arising within awareness?

With your eyes closed touch something. Can you describe what the sensations are like? If you push against something with your hand can you experience your hand separately from the thing you are pushing against or are there just sensations? Is there a self or I anywhere to be found in the sensations?

As you go about your daily life, try closing your eyes at different times of day whilst engaging in different activities and pay attention to the sensations. Can you find a separate self anywhere within the experience of physical sensations?

Okay, I have been doing this. I would say that when I close my eyes and try to just experience my physical sensations I do lose my sense of "I" or ownership of the sensations. And it is just the experience of various bodily sensations. When I push my hand against something solid I am only feeling sensations and not separation. I would say that my mind does try to imagine a picture of my hand pushing a picture of the object. If I erase that picture, then there is only sensations.

I feel when I open my eyes though, the sense of "I" (and separation) seems to come back. And then so does the story of what I/Paul need/s to do today.

I think that during the course of a day, my "I" seems to disappear for short periods of time when I am doing things unconsciously (driving a car, taking a shower), but at those times I'm also likely to be daydreaming some story of "I". It's like I'm unconsiously doing something that I've done thousands of times, so then my mind gets bored and imposes some daydream about me.

[amrita]

Hi,

I like your observation...

I feel when I open my eyes though, the sense of "I" (and separation) seems to come back. And then so does the story of what I/Paul need/s to do today.

What is that pulls you into the story of Paul? What is it that makes the story of "Paul" believable or real?

I would say that my mind does try to imagine a picture of my hand pushing a picture of the object. If I erase that picture, then there is only sensations.

For the sake of this inquiry we are going to say any mental object (thought/image/sound) is a mental symbol or thought that are superimposed onto the raw experience of the senses.

Let's take the sense of hearing next...

If you close your eyes and listen to a sound, any sound, can you find a seperate observer or self that is listening to that sound or is the sound simply present (within awareness)? If you listen to sounds can you find whether sound is arising within or without you? If the sound is occuring outside of you, so to speak, can you find the line between "you" and the "sound"?

[LosingIt]

What is that pulls you into the story of Paul? What is it that makes the story of "Paul" believable or real?

This is a very difficult question. I would say it is the seeming continuity of memory. There is a continuous story of Paul that seemingly wants to assert itself. What makes the story most believable to me is my social context, the people that I interact with on most days also "confirm" the story of Paul: My history, my likes/dislikes, activities, my personality. And maybe I've also been socially programmed to continuously confirm the story of Paul, via habit.

If you close your eyes and listen to a sound, any sound, can you find a seperate observer or self that is listening to that sound or is the sound simply present (within awareness)? If you listen to sounds can you find whether sound is arising within or without you? If the sound is occuring outside of you, so to speak, can you find the line between "you" and the "sound"?

When I close my eyes and hear a sound, I find it difficult to say whether the sound is actually occurring outside my head or inside my head. Of course, I know that there are no physical birds singing inside my skull, but I'm aware that the sounds (or waves of sounds) of birds (presumably outside my skull) are being translated by my brain/ears/nervous system into what we call birdsong. Anyways, without getting too sciency, I cannot find a clearly discernable demarcation between me and the sounds I'm hearing.

The only time I seem to find a separate observer is when I make a judgement about the sound. "This sound is beautiful, irritating, or it reminds me of this or that or something in my past".

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

When you say...

There is a continuous story of Paul that seemingly wants to assert itself. What makes the story most believable to me is my social context, the people that I interact with on most days also "confirm" the story of Paul: My history, my likes/dislikes, activities, my personality. And maybe I've also been socially programmed to continuously confirm the story of Paul, via habit.

Is the story of Paul a series of thoughts (words/images) or is it something that can be experienced directly in the experience of your physical senses?

We will come to look at thoughts and thinking shortly but first lets explore one more physical sense - the visual sense of sight. This may be more difficult as *sight* seems to be a more primary sense for many people.

If you look at any object in your vicinity, and spend some time exploring the actual sense of what is seen i.e. an image, can you find an observer seperate to what is being seen or is there simply images present? Do you make seeing happen in any way or is seeing just present? Is there any sense of being seperate from what is seen?

love

amrita