Looking for Guidance

[amrita]

Hi.

When you say,

Preferences fade in DE, for sure (or are nonexistent), BUT, let's say I have a very intense aversion to a specific food (when not in DE). If I put that food in my mouth during DE, would I no longer want to spit it out, would I no longer gag in response to it's flavor? I think my least favorite food would push me out of DE rather quickly.

is there a "self" that is having a strong aversion to a specific food or is there simply no appetite to eat that particular food?

Is there a self that puts food in your mouth or does food come into your mouth?

Is there a self that is spitting or gagging or is there simply spitting and gagging?

Is there a self that has a favourite and a least favourite type of food?

[LosingIt]

is there a "self" that is having a strong aversion to a specific food or is there simply no appetite to eat that particular food?

Ultimately, there is no self that has the strong aversion. But the aversion still arises. So you saying that even though the aversion may still exist in DE, it is not a self that has an aversion to it? Why does this particular aversion consistently arise in awareness within the body that I consistently perceive?

Is there a self that puts food in your mouth or does food come into your mouth?

There is no self that puts food into my mouth.

Is there a self that is spitting or gagging or is there simply spitting and gagging?

There would be simply spitting and gagging. But where does the aversion come from? Why does it consistently arise in awareness? How can I not be attached to this revulsion when it has been there all my apparent life?

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say aversion can you say a bit more about it in terms of DE? ie sensations/thoughts? How do you know you have a strong aversion? Are you defining your sense of self through your aversions?

[LosingIt]

When you say aversion can you say a bit more about it in terms of DE? ie sensations/thoughts? How do you know you have a strong aversion? Are you defining your sense of self through your aversions?

Well, the food that I have an aversion to, is so repulsive to me, that I just can't see myself ever not being extremely disgusted by it (It is a fairly common food, btw).

I feel that my aversion to it is congenital. I couldn't eat it as a baby. I'm certain that I define myself through (some of) my aversions.

I don't know how I could get into DE, try the food, and not have a negative reaction. It would be akin to being in DE and having a nail driven through my foot and not screaming in pain. I've seen monks light themselves on fire (self-immolation), but I definitely am not that deep of a meditator/DE experiencer.

[amrita]

Hi there,

I don't know how I could get into DE, try the food, and not have a negative reaction. It would be akin to being in DE and having a nail driven through my foot and not screaming in pain. I've seen monks light themselves on fire (self-immolation), but I definitely am not that deep of a meditator/DE experiencer.

I'm not suggesting you try to eat food that you do not like or drive a nail through your foot :). However, if you "imagine" you are eating food you do not like is there an unpleasant reaction? if so, is this a set of sensations or is a set of thoughts? Who is having this unpleasant reaction? Are the sensations "you" in any way? Are the "thoughts" you in any way?

Coming at this from a different angle, in DE what is the evidence that you exist in any shape or form?

[LosingIt]

I'm not suggesting you try to eat food that you do not like or drive a nail through your foot :)

Whew! :)

However, if you "imagine" you are eating food you do not like is there an unpleasant reaction?

No, because it is just a thought in awareness, and there is no "me".

if so, is this a set of sensations or is a set of thoughts? Who is having this unpleasant reaction? Are the sensations "you" in any way? Are the "thoughts" you in any way?

It would be just a set of thoughts. No one is having the unpleasant reaction. If there were sensations they would not be "me".
No thought is ever "me".

Coming at this from a different angle, in DE what is the evidence that you exist in any shape or form?

In DE there is zero evidence that "I" exist in any shape or form.
I'd say it's just difficult to be in DE most of the time.

That being said. When I think about how "I" have zero control over anything: other people,situations,weather,future events,"my" own body processes,"my" next breath,"my" words, "my" thoughts, "my" next action; this tends to get me in more of a DE space, and it's generally one of acceptance/no resistance.

[amrita]

Hi,

so when you say

In DE there is zero evidence that "I" exist in any shape or form.

Do you really see or experience that that or is it a belief? If you can see it, does that mean you no longer experience a self, I or me?

If not, what keeps you identified with the story (thoughts) that Paul exists apart from other thoughts?

[LosingIt]

Do you really see or experience that that or is it a belief? If you can see it, does that mean you no longer experience a self, I or me?

If not, what keeps you identified with the story (thoughts) that Paul exists apart from other thoughts?

I would say that 99% of the time I intellectually agree with the fact that there is no I or me or ego. Actually seeing it, or experiencing it has generally only been happening during moments within my formal meditation and infrequent moments outside of my formal meditation.

Intellectually I agree with that when I earnestly search for an ego, there is no ego to be found. It's just that the ego habits persist...

What keeps me identified with the story of Paul? I guess it's just habit. As I've said before. Friends and family act towards me as if I'm "Paul". I tend to repeat behavioral patterns (and predilections) that "Paul" has been doing for days, months, years.

Of course when I concentrate on my senses, and my abstract thought dies down or dissipates I see no Paul. When I contemplate the patterns of Paul, they are just thoughts, not an actual Paul. When I get to a place where I'm am in the here and now (which is all there actually is) then Paul becomes just a figment. Paul is just a tool for this biological being to carry on in a world saturated with other people pretending to have egos as well.

I'm sure there is some kind of survival based mechanism that the ego actuates after I spend time in DE and it puts the concept of Paul back into my mind (and gives it a sense of reality or permanence). Even though much of the experience of egolessness is pleasant, I think that there is probably a fear of becoming "completely untethered" from a connection to consensual reality (a reality in which egos interact with other egos). Not sure if this makes sense. Having said this, I think that the habit of being "Paul" is more strong than my fear of losing my ego.

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say...

I would say that 99% of the time I intellectually agree with the fact that there is no I or me or ego. Actually seeing it, or experiencing it has generally only been happening during moments within my formal meditation and infrequent moments outside of my formal meditation.

Can you say a bit more about what seeing or experiencing there is no self is like for you?

Even though much of the experience of egolessness is pleasant, I think that there is probably a fear of becoming "completely untethered" from a connection to consensual reality (a reality in which egos interact with other egos). Not sure if this makes sense. Having said this, I think that the habit of being "Paul" is more strong than my fear of losing my ego.

Also, can you say a bit more about the fear of becoming completely untethered from consensual reality? What exactly are you scared of? The experience of life is the same and nothing really changes apart from there is no longer an attachment to the story of "me", "I" or "mine". Thoughts of self still arise but they have no power as they are no longer believed to be real. Hope that makes sense to you

[LosingIt]

Can you say a bit more about what seeing or experiencing there is no self is like for you?

Either my thoughts have stopped, or when a thought arises it is notices and then it is let to do what it will do (it usually dissipates). My senses open up. I am seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, but not labeling these experiences and I'm not labeling any of the objects that arise in awareness. My senses tend to be heightened, I see, touch, hear, taste, smell things more profoundly. I generally experience a general relaxation, and many things seem new because the experience of them is not clouded by the past, or clouded by thoughts. I feel like I am directly experiencing the present moment
without judging it. And even though I'm using "I" to describe the experience, there really is no experience of the "I".

For example, I was on a hike last weekend through a forest with a windy path and I was able to just walk and see the plants (without labeling them), and my mind was clear (for many moments) and I just felt the breeze on my face, and heard the birds and insects (without saying "bee" or "hummingbird" to myself). I heard my footsteps and with each turn in the path, even though I have hiked this trail many times, I didn't anticipate what I would see as I made the turn into a new visual field. I let the experience all unfold naturally. It was like being on the trail for the first time.

Also, can you say a bit more about the fear of becoming completely untethered from consensual reality? What exactly are you scared of? The experience of life is the same and nothing really changes apart from there is no longer an attachment to the story of "me", "I" or "mine". Thoughts of self still arise but they have no power as they are no longer believed to be real. Hope that makes sense to you

It's not an overwhelming fear. It's just a mild fear that it may change my personality in such a way that people perceive that I am "different" than before. This fear is mitigated by my true desire to experience the state of nonduality now and not just on my deathbed or during some rare and beautiful sunset or during some other rare "transcendent" event. For me, I feel that this is something that my whole life has been leading me to, so the fear of other's perceptions is not going to stop me. But being that I still have an ego, it's a thought that passes through my awareness from time to time when I contemplate acheiving a consistent non-dual state.

[amrita]

Hello,

When you say...

But being that I still have an ego,

how do you know that you have an ego? What evidence is there in your experience that an ego exists?

and in relation to

when I contemplate acheiving a consistent non-dual state.

Isn't it the case that this non-dual state is always present? "

you" don't need to anything to "achieve" this state as its always present and its more a case of noticing what is and what is not actually there in experience rather than being caught up in thoughts about experience.

Let's try another exercise...

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[LosingIt]

how do you know that you have an ego? What evidence is there in your experience that an ego exists?

There is no real evidence that I have an ego. It is a persistant illusion, however, based on habits that I identify with or that seem to follow this locus of consciousness around.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Hmmm. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly... But here's what I came up with:

Self
Hearing a buzzing noise
Amused
Questioning is this exercise all about the self?
I want to finish reading the book I started last night
I need to check the timer

Other
Friend's face
Thought about this exercise
Memory of a Ted Talk
Memory of tonights meal with friends
Memory of a dog on the hiking trail
Memory of the movie I watched last night

What did I notice?
It's hard to classify something as self and other. Things that I classify as other, can also be classified as self and vice versa. A memory of a friend's face. Each memory elicits an emotion of sorts, so is that referring back to the self?

But if there is no self, then how can anything actually refer back to the self? It could only refer back to my llusion of the self.

I think I possibly failed at this exercise.

[amrita]

Hey no worries about failing anything. The exercises are ways to focus on the looking. Its the looking that's the most important thing and some exercises may not be as helpful as other ones. The pont of that one was to count how many thoughts were self-referential in some way and how many thoughts were not about yourself in any way.

Hmmm. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly... But here's what I came up with:
Self
Hearing a buzzing noise
Amused
Questioning is this exercise all about the self?
I want to finish reading the book I started last night
I need to check the timer

Other
Friend's face
Thought about this exercise
Memory of a Ted Talk
Memory of tonights meal with friends
Memory of a dog on the hiking trail
Memory of the movie I watched last night

What did I notice?
It's hard to classify something as self and other. Things that I classify as other, can also be classified as self and vice versa. A memory of a friend's face. Each memory elicits an emotion of sorts, so is that referring back to the self?

But if there is no self, then how can anything actually refer back to the self? It could only refer back to my llusion of the self.

I think I possibly failed at this exercise.

In response to some of that

Do any of the above thoughts belong to you in any way? Do you exist in any type of thought or is the case that thoughts are simply arising in awareness? If you are not the thoughts are you the seer/witness of those thoughts?

[LosingIt]

Do any of the above thoughts belong to you in any way? Do you exist in any type of thought or is the case that thoughts are simply arising in awareness? If you are not the thoughts are you the seer/witness of those thoughts?

These thoughts do not bleong to me, they are just arising in awareness.

I would say that I am the awareness that those thoughts arise in. Isn't the witness/seer just another thought?

My issue is remaining in that awareness/DE and not drifting back to thinking that I'm Paul and Paul is the doer of actions and creator of thoughts and the thinker of ideas. I know intellectually that this is fiction. And when I am meditating (formally and informally), I have moments where I am in DE and the story of Paul fades away. I would say that there are also times within the day where I have not intended to put myself in DE but I find myself in a state of DE.

And I know that when I say this that you would say that there is no one that creates the intention to be in DE anyway. That DE is here and now. And there is really nothing for anyone to do. I get that, as well, intellectually, and at times experientially, but I find myself often getting caught up in stories of the mind and mental chatter.

[amrita]

Hi,

These thoughts do not bleong to me, they are just arising in awareness.

I would say that I am the awareness that those thoughts arise in. Isn't the witness/seer just another thought?

Can you find any sign or presence of an I in awareness apart from thoughts of I?

When you are identified with the story of the Paul where is your sense of self located? Is it in the thoughts or is it in physical sensations? What happens to awareness when you become identified with the story?

When you think of the story of Paul is it purely in the form of thoughts (words/images) or are there physical sensations present?

What power does a thought have? Can a thought provoke a physical reaction? Is it possible to have the same thought without a physical reaction?