Hi

[Matty317]

If the knowledge that you are not the body (sensations) and not the thoughts hasn't been looked at clearly then there will be continued thoughts that come up that are overly concerned with the state of the body/mind. There is conditioning that resulted in this, but it could be that the seeing needs to be deeper.

Yes I think this is correct and my seeing is not deep enough. As I can get to the understanding if no me but it's certainly not plain sailing in reaching this understanding

[Matty317]

Other responses to your post on previous page (sorry my admin is not at it's best this morning)

[Philosoraptr]

"

hold on , you are suffering practice non dual thought processes

"

In this sentence, what is the "you" that is referred to that will now practice the thought process. Don't answer it from your non dual understanding but stay still and look deeply at what it refers to and ask , Is this picture/sensation/thought/memory a sentient thing or is it an insentient object. Respond with all the things that came up that the you seems tied to. This is

We must look curiously at what this thought refers to that is carrying this heavy burden of life and improvement and fixing issues with non dual thought processes.

Take your time. This is a more subtle version of self which we need to look at deeper

[Matty317]

Thanks , this isnt as easy as previous investigations , it seems the info is locked away , I feel a lot of resistance in accessing it. Like this false identity is wrapped up tightly. The initial feelings are that when investigating the suffering vanishes albeit temporarily. This occurs when the outer layers of protection are starting to be peeled away. I will continue. Btw shall I call you Phil?

[Philosoraptr]

Thanks , this isnt as easy as previous investigations , it seems the info is locked away , I feel a lot of resistance in accessing it.

The resistance is good. Keep looking.

Like this false identity is wrapped up tightly. The initial feelings are that when investigating the suffering vanishes albeit temporarily.

It may feel like something is wrapped up tightly but what other than a thought says that?

Could it be that the struggle is because thought cannot find an answer and labels that as struggle?

This occurs when the outer layers of protection are starting to be peeled away. I will continue. Btw shall I call you Phil?

Can a thought protect another thought? Look at two thoughts.

'I am investigating'.... 'i am peeling away the protection'...does it circle around another thought and protect it...or is it like 2 sequential independent things that pop up...now look and see. if you are the thought, then you wouldn't be able to witness it...what you see (in this case the thoughts) is not you. You see your phone or computer and don't confuse it for being you..so why do that with a thought?

A sound arises and falls away. Did you at any point feel like you were the sound...or a color...

Could it be that just as you are not a sound or color you are not a thought? They are just automatic functioning of life..just as you don't switch on or switch of hearing, or thinking ..they go on automatically...sometimes providing helpful information and other times claiming it is an "I" which is not the totality of life, but just one small package of life independently existing inside a body. The real I that you are is life itself, you can't point to one part and claim it's living on its own (which thought falsely created a claim about)

Don't worry about trying to find out what the 'you' is...just be confident that you exist and are alive (be ok not knowing for now what you are) and remove the things that are logically not you. This is just logic and no struggle. A child would do this exercise better, not because they know more or are smarter, but because they can see how illogical it is to believe that you are a bunch of words that pop up and disappear. You can call me Sid..

If you ignore the thoughts are you still present and safe and secure?

[Matty317]

If you ignore the thoughts are you still present and safe and secure?

Yes of course. Existance at a level of initial feeling and recognition of the senses is much more simple and peaceful than when thought gets involved. That has been realised throughout this process . Thanks for these thought reminders , thought is always there just waiting , as you have mentioned to claim and label. Tho of course even when looking at life from this perspective its still there questioning , " well without thought that sees this concept of it being more peaceful without thought" and synical thinking occurs that says "this whole investigation is based on thoughts from me and you which is acceptable but thought it blamed conveniently when dead ends are reached" Thoughts now are appearing to offer resolutions to these quandries. Yes I can see I am not them and they come and go as do sounds.

[Philosoraptr]

Tho of course even when looking at life from this perspective its still there questioning , " well without thought that sees this concept of it being more peaceful without thought"

Yes the questioning comes up and it needs to be seen that the reason thought will keep coming up is that it cannot actually see anything but only label. In this case what is the answer to "Without thought, what is seeing?" Well a thought cannot see firstly. Close your eyes and let a thought appear that says "I see". Now can this thought see? . If eyes are open and vision appears then have a thought that says "I will stop seeing' and see if seeing is affected. Now if something cannot stop or start or interrupt anything then what power does it have. Notice that seeing hearing thinking sensing are switched on and not interfering with each other at all. Thought says something is seeing and thinking but that's just more thoughts.

What do you experience when you do that exercise?

thinking occurs that says "this whole investigation is based on thoughts from me and you which is acceptable but thought it blamed conveniently when dead ends are reached"

Look closely and answers. What thinks a thought? What is the subject of this thought stream? I.e can you point in the moment and tell me some qualities that you found of this subject. If it's there then it must be seen heard tasted or touched right? Answer after carefully observing.

[Matty317]

What do you experience when you do that exercise?

Yes I agree that all senses are independant of each other and thought can only label it has no power to be able to start or stop any of the senses.

What thinks a thought? What is the subject of this thought stream? I.e can you point in the moment and tell me some qualities that you found of this subject.

There is no subject present , thought appears and disappears without any subject creating or removing.

[Philosoraptr]

Great, so then is there any self to be found in any of thinking, seeing, hearing and touching? Look closely before concluding and search each of them for a self.

Now you might be seeing that thoughts don't want to stop with doubts. The below explains why. Do you feel you have some expectations of no self that are fuelling the mind's desire to "find more"

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

[Philosoraptr]

Great, so then is there any self to be found in any of thinking, seeing, hearing and touching? Look closely before concluding and search each of them for a self.

Now you might be seeing that thoughts don't want to stop with doubts. The below explains why. Do you feel you have some expectations of no self that are fuelling the mind's desire to "find more"

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

[Matty317]

Great, so then is there any self to be found in any of thinking, seeing, hearing and touching?

Conclusively no self found in these senses.

Do you feel you have some expectations of no self that are fuelling the mind's desire to "find more"

Yes , there is certainly desire along with expectation. The expectations havent changed since the start to be honest. It feels that the understanding of "noone to suffer" is seen more freely now certainly than before. Thanks for the lost car keys analogy , it is a good comparison.

[Matty317]

Upon reflection I see this expectation question for what it is, a check to see if no self is yet seen. So at this time the,answer to this question is , there is no entity present that expects , or is there no self present with or without a desire to find more.

[Matty317]

Desire is present though to be clear but no self owns it.

[Philosoraptr]

Great, the desire is just a habit for a mind that's spent a long time looking. But the answer should be the seeing in the moment that there is no self in thoughts, but there is seeing+hearing+tasting+touching and all that is arising without the need for a controller/doer/self

Our language is also wired to create a doer in every statement. For ex. The statement " it is raining"..what is the it? There's no one making it rain, the rain is happening.

Is there however an expectation of what will be different if that no-self is seen? Let's look at that

[Matty317]

Ok. Seems im looking in a squ wif fashion.

Is there however an expectation of what will be different if that no-self is seen? Let's look at that

When no self is seen the structure of this investigation fades and loses importance. When practicing happens of unlinking the self from thoughts as they come up it feels there is no greater attainment to be achieved from that practice. Tho tbh I still feel much practice is required here in seeing the thoughts come and go and not being those thoughts.