Hi

[Matty317]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That I am not my body mind. That my true self is that which is aware of my body mind.

What are you looking for at LU?
Im looking to find another route to be free from the conditioning that keeps me believing I am a separate self. I have been immersed in non duality teachings which have opened my eyes to reality. I understand the teachings on an intellectual level and have flashes of true felt experience but i dont believe that I have truly embodied the teachings.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that I will be guided to a true felt understanding that I am not a separate self. Or that is what I would like. I assume this is similar to a neo advaita approach. I am keen to discover more.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
2yrs of reading listened and following teachers mainly on the non duality discipline. Evkhart tolle , adyashanti , rupert spira , ramana , robert Adams etc. Meditation most days.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Philosoraptr]

Hello Matty, This is Sid and I'm happy to be your guide in this if you wish.

If you're ready to go ahead and if you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

For this process to work well for us, I will be asking you to LOOK, at your own direct experience in the present moment - do not rely on prior beliefs, dogma, teachings, assumptions, theories, or any kind of thought. Simply LOOK and report back what you see in immediate present experience.

The below example can highlight the difference between looking and thinking.

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

It is also very important you pause all seeking for the entirety of our conversation. This means no reading books, no articles, no watching videos or talks, or any other spiritual resources. This is for your own benefit, so we can look clearly without becoming confused by the beliefs of others.

A few other considerations,

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. Relax and have fun doing these exercise with an open mind and curiosity to explore and investigate
id

Now if we're ready to start

Are there also any expectations about what you expect to see or not see when you go looking for the self? Any pre-conceptions?


Thanks,
Sid

[Matty317]

Hi Sid.

Thanks for the reply.
I have read the disclaimer and understand your point about looking at present experience.
In terms of preconceptions I am unsure. All I have to refer To is other teachings and the nuances between them so I will try to be an open book re expectations or preconceptions of the results of this enquiry.

Thanks Matt

[Philosoraptr]

Great, it's best to drop all conceptions and focus on just looking and seeing what comes up.

If I was to say to you now - there is no self at all, and never was, can you please let me know what comes up for you? What objections, feelings, sensations, thoughts?

Cheers
Sid

[Matty317]

Immediately a sense of relief it is an intellectual concept that I understand. I have a desire to feel the understanding for more than fleeting moments which only happens when mind is still and focused. Eg after/during meditation etc. I am excited at the prospect of really getting this.

[Philosoraptr]

Sorry about the delay getting back to you Matty, Busy couple of days.

Immediately a sense of relief it is an intellectual concept that I understand. I have a desire to feel the understanding for more than fleeting moments which only happens when mind is still and focused. Eg after/during meditation etc.

Ok Great, Let's revisit expectations briefly. It's important to see that expectations tend to block you from looking clearly.
Answer the below questions and then see if any expectations can be put aside.

How will you feel when you get this understanding
What will change about life
How will things be different

The expectations are nothing but thoughts about how this should be. If you look at life, does it ever match what you expect from it or do things usually come out differently than you predicted. Best to be a blank slate and see where the looking takes you.

I am excited at the prospect of really getting this.

This is the most important factor to be looking with curiosity and interest. So keep going!

[Matty317]

i cant see how I can answer these questions without having expectations! So i will answer them as best I can

How will you feel when you get this understanding

the same but with less suffering.

What will change about life

I hope that I can create a more peaceful atmosphere in a hectic home life by being more patient and passive and accepting of others.

How will things be different

things may be more calm and situations and communications be less stressful without my ego.

[Matty317]

If you look at life, does it ever match what you expect from it or do things usually come out differently than you predicted

Most of the time life does match what I expect. Though of course not always.

[Philosoraptr]

Good. Yes you can see that those answers are expectations. Not very huge ones but expectations none the less. Could you try to put down and set aside these expectations or predictions? You just have to accept that it might or might not be as you expect it to be.

Now, our focus here is to see directly through the illusion of the separate self, specifically. Let's get some basic groundwork in place so this can be seen clearly.

Let us start off with a nice easy exercise, but which lays some very important groundwork.

Try this for real, and report back what you find:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible! This is an example of using thought.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc. This is an example of actual experience (AE).

How does actual experience compare to thought?
Which feels more real?
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

Please answer each question individually, and answer all questions.

[Matty317]

How does actual experience compare to thought?

So when I was imagining the process I was surprised how real it felt and how much detail I could create/imagine. But AE was of course the complete experience.

Which feels more real?

AE clearly

Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?

I was surprised at how detailed though could be and detail in fact was not too far apart but richness of experience hands down AE was the winner. In fact the term "richness" is perfect to use to describe it. That is exactly what it was , a rich complete experience

Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

No definately not.

This was an interesting exercise in highlighting the "richness" in AE that is overlooked in everyday life.

[Philosoraptr]

Which feels more real?

AE clearly

Yes the important thing to see is what's REAL is richer, and truly exists. Thought as much as it can simulate, will never replace the AE.

I was surprised at how detailed though could be and detail in fact was not too far apart but richness of experience hands down AE was the winner. In fact the term "richness" is perfect to use to describe it. That is exactly what it was , a rich complete experience

It sounds like the thoughts create a vivid picture for you but thought is memory based on a simulation. It would be worth trying this exercise with the act of drinking water when you are thirsty. Try to simulate the relief and satisfaction and them see in AE if that is as satisfying.

The main lessons here are that AE is real and the only AE in thought is the arising of it (i.e noticing it came up), and not the contents (the story it carries). It'll be worth exploring this a bit further in an exercise.

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with two or three lists like the one above and any questions you may have.

[Matty317]

Hi.

Ok so I have ran this exercise a few times today.

Whilst driving.
Feeling hand on steering wheel = sensation
Feeling road under tyres bumps etc = sensation
Hearing tyres on road= sound
Hearing birds outside = sound
Feeling car keys touch leg = sensation
Thinking whether car is driving to close behind= thought
Train of thought arising from this initial thought relating to who is driving the car behind, what they are thinking about my driving etc = chain of thoughts
Me thinking must stop this chain of thoughts = thought

Eating lunch
Holding a crisp and putting it into my mouth= touch and movement of arm
Tasting salty crisp with tongue =taste
Chewing crisp with teeth = taste and sensation and sound of crisp crunching
Swallowing chewed crisp = throat movement?
Feeling crinkly crisp packet in other hand = feel and sound

Sitting here now
Sitting on a chair with feet on desk , feel of chair under bum and back of chair behind back/ head = sensation
Arms propped on armrests=sensation
Dull headache I have had all day = pain in head - unpleasant sensation
Hearing stream outside = sound
Distant cars on road sound
Thinking need to leave now = thought
Headache distracting me from anything else = thought and psin sensation.

I cant help thinking about this process and labeling it a mindfulness exercise which I suppose it is but that comes with a narrative and a negative connotation of my story about mindfulness practices. Again mind takes over with trying to label. Also before I know it I get distracted from these exercises or any peace/stillness generating efforts by different stuff playing over and over in my head. Either a song playing on repeat . A conversation I had or rehearsing a conversation I will have. Very common this for me.

[Philosoraptr]

Ok so I have ran this exercise a few times today.

Whilst driving.
Feeling hand on steering wheel = sensation
Feeling road under tyres bumps etc = sensation
Hearing tyres on road= sound
Hearing birds outside = sound
Feeling car keys touch leg = sensation
Thinking whether car is driving to close behind= thought
Train of thought arising from this initial thought relating to who is driving the car behind, what they are thinking about my driving etc = chain of thoughts
Me thinking must stop this chain of thoughts = thought

Very good job with the looking! "You" saw the sensation, sound and thought arising, and spotted them clearly.
You also did well to catch 'the train of thoughts arising from he initial thought' as just another thought..just with content that was coming from a previous thought.

Remember, regardless of the content of the thought, it's just another thought arising as a category along with everything else. The AE (Actual experience of thought) is just thought arising, not contents of it which is a story or a simulation.

Thoughts can basically do only one of two things:
— Thoughts about actual experience
— Thoughts about other thoughts

Sitting here now
Sitting on a chair with feet on desk , feel of chair under bum and back of chair behind back/ head = sensation
Arms propped on armrests=sensation
Dull headache I have had all day = pain in head - unpleasant sensation
Hearing stream outside = sound
Distant cars on road sound
Thinking need to leave now = thought
Headache distracting me from anything else = thought and psin sensation.

Take a look at "pain in head - unpleasant sensation"
This would be
'Pain in head' - Thought
'Unpleasant' - Thought
and a sensation.
Thoughts have a way of making you believe they are real descriptions.

I cant help thinking about this process and labeling it a mindfulness exercise which I suppose it is but that comes with a narrative and a negative connotation of my story about mindfulness practices. Again mind takes over with trying to label. Also before I know it I get distracted from these exercises or any peace/stillness generating efforts by different stuff playing over and over in my head. Either a song playing on repeat . A conversation I had or rehearsing a conversation I will have. Very common this for me.

"I cant help thinking about this process and labeling it a mindfulness exercise which I suppose it is but that comes with a narrative and a negative connotation of my story about mindfulness practices"

Could this be labelled as thought content in this entire sentence. Given the previous thoughts you've seen, could this be another thought about a thought?

Also before I know it I get distracted from these exercises or any peace/stillness generating efforts by different stuff playing over and over in my head. Either a song playing on repeat . A conversation I had or rehearsing a conversation I will have. Very common this for me.

Did we say anything about generating peace/stillness from these efforts? Did you see how an expectation sneaked in there? We aren't looking to create any sensations with these exercises. You just need to look and report back. That's all that is expected.

If an expectations does come up, just catch it and notice it and label the entire thing
"Also before I know it I get distracted from these exercises or any peace/stillness generating efforts by different stuff playing over and over in my head." As Thought contents.

Which is just what they are.

Reminder about looking vs thinking below. Now once you've replied to this I'll share another exercise to look at. Also what time zone are you in? Will help me know when to reply. I'm in East of Australia.

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

[Matty317]

Hi. Yes re socks I totally understand difference between looking as,an AE and remembering as a thought.

Very interesting about thoughts about thoughts too! I wonder how much of my thinking is thought about AE vs thoughts about thoughts about thought about thoughts Lol. I bet I would be surprised.

Also before I know it I get distracted from these exercises or any peace/stillness generating efforts by different stuff playing over and over in my head. Either a song playing on repeat . A conversation I had or rehearsing a conversation I will have. Very common this for me.
Did we say anything about generating peace/stillness from these efforts? Did you see how an expectation sneaked in there? We aren't looking to create any sensations with these exercises. You just need to look and report back. That's all that is expected.

I didnt mean that I was expecting these exercises to bring peace and stillness i was just saying in the past when trying to meditate or be still that these thoughts songs convos - aussie term (thought) lol .... would start up out of nowhere , but yes again point taken

I'm in Uk . But please feel free to reply at any time that is convenient to you.

[Philosoraptr]

Very interesting about thoughts about thoughts too! I wonder how much of my thinking is thought about AE vs thoughts about thoughts about thought about thoughts Lol. I bet I would be surprised.

Yes keep close to thoughts and see how they try to refer to other thoughts. You would be very surprised!

Ok great, so next exercise


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?