Is there anything, anything at all, that doesn’t happen on its own?Nothing is being done be a me, and this is becoming increasingly apparent each day. All is happening effortlessly by itself without any control from anywhere else.
No, not as far as I can tell. The realisation that all is happening on its own struck me today when I was chatting with my girlfriend on Messenger. I noted that anything I wrote seemed to be written by itself. Although there were thoughts coming and going about what to write, I noticed that there was a complete absence of decision making involved in this process.Is there anything, anything at all, that doesn’t happen on its own?
No, there is just the observation of things happening.Is there any control over anything at all?
The inquiry is also just happening. There is no kind of entity doing it.What is doing this inquiry? Is there someone doing it? Or this is also just happening?
I can't detect any feelings like that. Everything around me can be experienced through one or another of my senses,Is there a feeling of separation? If yes, could you please describe what is separate from what?
Let’s go a step further.No, there is just the observation of things happening.
Things are being observed but I can't find the presence of any observer. I am looking out of the window and can see the slight movement of the TV aerial in the wind and the light grey skies beyond it, so there is the perception of things happening, moving and existing. But that's all I can actually detect, things happening. There is no answer to what it is that is observing things happening.What is it that observe things happening?
I know that thoughts are rising up and can detect images and ideas within them. But there is no thing observing them that can be detected.Look at thoughts.
Is there something apart from thoughts, observing them?
No, there is no perception of a separate observer watching over thoughts. There is the perception of them and nothing else.When there is a thought present, are there two things there: thought + something that observes it?
It's a feeling of relief. Knowing that things happen anyway despite what we think are our own efforts to make things happen has a liberating quality to it.How does it FEEL to see that there is no observer and everything is just happening on its own?
Yes, definitely. And the difference between the thinking and the knowing is quite huge.Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, to an experiential recognition?
Yes, I feel 100% certain of this. There is the feeling that I had managed to pull the wool over my own eyes by believing there ever was such a thing. There are no doubts about the reality of this, though there are times when I slip back into my old learned forgetfulness. However, the experience gained by seeing that those learned behaviours were never an expression of reality means these states don't last too long before I realise that there is no separate self.Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self and never was?
Is there any doubt, even just the slightest?
No, there's nothing that doesn't feel clear.Is there anything that is not super clear, and you would like to look at?
Yes, I'm ready. :)Are you ready for these final questions?
No. From practicing the looking exercises I haven't once been able to find anything that could be verified to be an 'I' or a separate entity, whether it was 'a part of me' that is real and definite or some other for of entity or 'higher self.' If the 'I' doesn't exist now, it never existed anywhere except the imagination.Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
The illusion of separate self is the belief that the thoughts and sensations we notice are being observed or experienced by a living entity that resides 'inside us,' or is a part of ourselves separate from or in control of our actions we take and the decisions we appear to make. An example from my own experience of this has been noted when I've been out walking and have stopped to cross a road, or when I have come to a place where there are two possible paths to take. Stopping at the roadside or taking one of the two different paths, thoughts are noted about the environment and its possibilities. This is where the illusion begins to happen.Then the next action is taken, but happens independently of whatever our thoughts were noting about the situation. The belief that the thoughts 'caused' the action is also part of the illusion. And because that illusion is believed, another thought may be noticed about the connection between the thought and the action which causes us to assume that the thought made the action happen and that some form of 'separate self made this decision and coerced the mind and body into obeying its commands.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
As above, it feels like the realisation that comes when you realise you've been fooled. A bit like a child who was shown a magic trick that was believed, but then as an adult get to see how the trick is actually performed and finds it hard to believe they had ever believed it to be real.3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It was in observing the movements of the physical body and the realisation that the decision making process was non existent. This came from the instructions about moving the hands in the air and closely watching the moment when the action started and stopped. When applied to the exercise about observing the process of deciding whether or not to eat some food this was enhanced even more. But what actually brought me to the point of being pushed over was the application of these methods of looking into my everyday life in as many different ways as possible, with the examples of crossing roads and observing the starting point of exercises being the two most notable.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
.5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work
In reality, nothing. A good recent example can be found in my experience of listening to music on shuffle over Spotify. Whenever a song came on, I was aware of thoughts arising about whether I wanted to listen to that particular one or not. No decision making process could be found, and I noticed that sometimes sing I felt like I wanted to were skipped while those I felt I didn't want to listen to were kept on. This made me perceive that I wasn't really responsible for what songs were being kept on and which were being skipped and that the process to do that was happening despite whatever thoughts arose to each particular song.b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
No, nothing further to add at this stage.6) Anything to add?
What is it that believed in the illusion in its whole life?The fact that I believed in this illusion all of my life without even questioning it makes me feel a bit of a fool, but at the same time, I understand how it happened.
What is it that could look in the right kind of way? What is doing the looking?As soon as you begin looking in the right kind of way - that is, through looking at what one is actually experiencing rather that what one happens to be thinking ….
Who has been fooled?As above, it feels like the realisation that comes when you realise you've been fooled.
So there is an I outside of thoughts, who can treat thoughts as what they are?Now I treat thoughts as exactly what they are.
So there is something or someone apart from thoughts, who/what is being informed by thoughts?Random pieces of information that come from nowhere, inform us of something, then disappear.
“I paid real attention…” – what is it that could pay attention? What is doing that?Recently, I paid real attention to the moment that the exercises began happening and noticed every single time that the actual 'decision' did not exist and that the exercises just started happening by themselves.
“What this taught me…” – so there is someone outside of thoughts about decision, who notices and can learn not to worry about decisions?What this taught me is that decisions are not something to be worried about because we never actually make any.
“ and I noticed that…” – you say, “I noticed” – so what is it that notices?No decision making process could be found, and I noticed that sometimes sing I felt like I wanted to were skipped while those I felt I didn't want to listen to were kept on. This made me perceive that I wasn't really responsible for what songs were being kept on a
Nothing. A lifetime of passing thoughts that, when perceived as memories, left the illusory notion of there being a 'character' that had existed.What is it that believed in the illusion in its whole life?The fact that I believed in this illusion all of my life without even questioning it makes me feel a bit of a fool, but at the same time, I understand how it happened.
No not at all. There is no sense of such a thing existing anymore.Is there someone outside of the illusion who believed in the illusion?
There is nothing doing the looking, looking is just happening.What is it that could look in the right kind of way? What is doing the looking?As soon as you begin looking in the right kind of way - that is, through looking at what one is actually experiencing rather that what one happens to be thinking ….
Nothing is 'doing' the experiencing, the experiencing is something that is happening without any direction or control.“looking at what one is actually experiencing” – what is it that is experiencing?
No, definitely not.Is there an experiencer outside of experience, looking in and experiencing?
There is nothing there doing the thinking. Passing thoughts are just perceived, but there is no separate perceiver.– what is this one that is doing the thinking?“rather what one happens to be thinking”
There is nothing to be fooled, just a thought passing that has the theme of a non existent self having been fooled. As the thought 'who has been fooled?' arises, another thought arises saying 'you have.' After this, another thought arises that says 'there is no you.' Then another thought says 'disregard all of these thoughts as being just thoughts.' This thought pattern coulf potentially be continued for a long long time, but fortunately, just as they came from nowhere they all return to nothing and are no longer perceived.Who has been fooled?As above, it feels like the realisation that comes when you realise you've been fooled.
Of these two options, it would be the latter. There is only this false, imaginary self comprised of thought and no other.Is there another self outside of illusionary self, who has been fooled by the illusionary self?
Or did the illusionary self has realized that it was fooled?
No, but there are thoughts that often arise about the illusory nature of thoughts.So there is an I outside of thoughts, who can treat thoughts as what they are?Now I treat thoughts as exactly what they are.
Nothing. These thoughts about thoughts are still just more thoughts.What is it that has the power to treat thoughts differently?
No. In answering these questions, the thoughts that were perceived during the process of writing were being expressed. The thoughts are being communicated here to try and answer the question and so the language and mode of thoughts are being expressed. The experiential aspect of this process cannot be communicated effectively without this process. Thus, the terms 'I' or 'us' but are in reality are just 'my thoughts' or 'our thoughts'So there is something or someone apart from thoughts, who/what is being informed by thoughts?Random pieces of information that come from nowhere, inform us of something, then disappear.
Nothing pays attention, there are just thoughts about thoughts and about things happening automatically.Recently, I paid real attention to the moment that the exercises began happening and noticed every single time that the actual 'decision' did not exist and that the exercises just started happening by themselves.
“I paid real attention…” –what is it that could pay attention? What is doing that?
Nothing but thoughts.“… noticed every single time that actual ‘decision’ did not exist” – What is it that noticed this? What notices?
No, again, these are just conventions of language being expressed. There is no detectable entity beyond thoughts.What this taught me is that decisions are not something to be worried about because we never actually make any.“What this taught me…” – so there is someone outside of thoughts about decision, who notices and can learn not to worry about decisions?
Nothing but thoughts about learning not to worry about things.What is it that can learn this?
Nothing but negative thoughts.What is it that could worry?
No, again, these are just conventions of language being expressed. There is no detectable entity beyond thoughts.No decision making process could be found, and I noticed that sometimes a song I felt like I wanted to were skipped while those I felt I didn't want to listen to were kept on. This made me perceive that I wasn't really responsible for what songs were being kept on a“ and I noticed that…” – you say, “I noticed” – so what is it that notices?
Is there something separate from what is happening, and this thing is noticing what is happening?
Thoughts about feelings that were perceived. All there is here are thoughts, thoughts and thoughts. That is all that can be perceived, but there is no source or 'thinker of thoughts' ever detectable at any point.“I felt I didn’t want to listen” – what is it that could feel that way?
Just more thoughts again. There is nothing else perceivable beyond them.“that I wasn’t really responsible” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence?
Is there someone who is not responsible?
OK, thanks, that's great.Thank you Dave for answering the questions. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.
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