Helen Legg. Knock knock... Who’s there?

[Legg]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I may already understand that there isn’t any inherent self but I am still a little stuck in regards to control, like I still have a bit of fear that stops me from seeing there is no control/controller.
Maybe my current understanding is only intellectually based.

What are you looking for at LU?
To go through the LU process.
I have been a Buddhist for many years and I have been guided a bit in 4/5 by Christiane but due to not knowing some of the basics with the LU approach/language I am not entirely sure of how to progress.
So I am thinking let’s start from the beginning 🙂
If I am through the gate already then that’s great and I will know for sure and if I am not then this gives me the opportunity to do so.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That I will be given some advice on how to investigate my experience - I will then do some exploring and report back my findings until I am through the gate.
That I will receptive to new ways of experiencing and my guide will encourage me to look at what I haven’t yet seen through.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I used to be a Buddhist nun with the Karma Kagyu Lineage and I have also been connected to Triratna for many years.
All together I have done about 3 years of retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[barb]

Hi Helen:)

I would like to assist you in exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions.

At the beginning a few explanations:

This is not a "normal dialogue". Essentially, it's about asking you questions and assigning tasks and you answering them from your direct experience. See what you can do with your five senses and which thoughts you can observe. Look each fresh and do not call you on books you've read or experiences that you have ever made.

You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...
This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. :)

It is important that you try to be 100% honest in your own interest ... For the duration of this investigation, please leave all books, videos, satsangs other threads in this forum or whatever on the subject, which could affect direct viewing and perception. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that, but not necessary.

To keep your process flowing here, it would be good if you could answer every day at least every second day. If it does not fit or you need more time just let me know.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch that can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://liberationunleashed.com/

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?



Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


I'm looking forward to your answers :)

[Legg]

Hello Barb,
Thanks for responding in such a swift way,
I wasn’t expecting it to be so fast!
I have been surprisingly busy over the past couple of days with some voluntary work commitments so I have not yet had chance to do the investigations.
I will look more closely tomorrow evening.
I just wanted to say hi and that I have noticed that I am now on the forum!
I am ready.
Many many thanks.
Helen Legg.

[barb]

Hi!

Thanks for letting me know; take your time, no need for rush :)

Much love

[Legg]

Hi Barb,
I have been so busy at work during this very unusual time.
I am a volunteer Trustee for a disabled sports charity and we have had a great deal to organise and sort through.
Hopefully some ground has been cleared now and I will have a bit more time for getting started.

What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?

I’m imagining a bit of an aha moment, seeing something in my experience for what it really is.

What will change, what will remain the same?

I imagine all will be different and yet the same. There will be breathing and seeing and feeling etc that will be the same but I will see through the delusion of myself.

What do you expect, what do you hope?

I am not sure why I haven’t realised this before (maybe I have) but if I haven’t maybe it’s just because I either haven’t been receptive enough or I just haven’t been asked the best questions for the shift to happen. So I really hope that I get through the gate.

Thanks Barb,
I am not sure how much information you require here, but this is a start.
Please let me know I can communicate clearly with you and suggest whatever comes to mind to aid this.
I look forward to your reply.
X

[barb]

Hi Helen!

Now it is the case that I am quite busy, but I‘ve asked for another guide for you, and he will write you soon... :)

Much love, barb

[nemesis]

Hi,

So I am thinking let’s start from the beginning 🙂

Great idea!

maybe it’s just because I [...] haven’t been receptive enough

What do you mean by that?
Please describe this receptiveness in your direct experience. Can you smell it? Taste it? Touch it? Or is it just a concept... created by thought?

That I will [become] receptive to new ways of experiencing

That's interesting. So there are different ways to experience things? What is it that categorizes the experience and says there are 'different ways'?

I used to be a Buddhist nun with the Karma Kagyu Lineage and I have also been connected to Triratna for many years.

I don't know that much about Buddhist teachings but for now let's just put them in a box and leave them behind, okay?
We'll just look at what's here right now.

Did you take a look at the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
Would be great if you could use that. It makes your answers easier to read.

I'm looking forward to your reply. Let's go ;)

[Legg]

Hello by the way, who is it that’s guiding me now?

maybe it’s just because I [...] haven’t been receptive enough
What do you mean by that?
Please describe this receptiveness in your direct experience. Can you smell it? Taste it? Touch it? Or is it just a concept... created by thought?

Yes I can see what you mean about receptivity. Just a thought / mental construct not in direct experience at all.
I was in a thought based reasoning experience though when I wrote the repsonse.
But thanks for pointing it out I am sure I am full of mis conceptions like this so please keep on bringing them to my awareness, although I am tentatively using the word awareness here. As in this context I’m not sure what awareness is.


Next question

That I will [become] receptive to new ways of experiencing

That's interesting. So there are different ways to experience things? What is it that categorizes the experience and says there are 'different ways'?

There isn’t anything that categorises the the experiences but any insights I have had before have led so some sort of shift of how I perceive my experience and how I relate to people along with a sense of spaciousness (often).

Or even a shift of how i experience experiencing 😂

I don't know that much about Buddhist teachings but for now let's just put them in a box and leave them behind, okay?
We'll just look at what's here right now.

That’s suits me fine as I don’t know much about Buddhism either 😂👌 really I don’t I am not just saying that.



Best wishes and many thanks, Helen

[nemesis]

Hello by the way, who is it that’s guiding me now?

Sorry if this was a bit complicated. I am your new guide if that's okay. You can call me Tom if you want. :)

I was in a thought based reasoning experience though when I wrote the response.
But thanks for pointing it out I am sure I am full of misconceptions like this so please keep on bringing them to my awareness

It's great that you see that yourself.

any insights I have had before have led so some sort of shift of how I perceive my experience

So... these shifts, are they in the direct experience right now or is just thought doing it's thing again?
This past in which you experienced these shifts... is it really there? Where is it?

Are there such things as past or future?

Best wishes and many thanks, Helen

You're welcome. :)

[Legg]

So... these shifts, are they in the direct experience right now or is just thought doing it's thing again?
This past in which you experienced these shifts... is it really there? Where is it?

Are there such things as past or future?

This is an interesting question, the shifts or whatever occurs were points in time which definitely have led to a more expansive or open less cognitive experience of life in the present. Yes I can think back to when these thing's arose but that is just memory. Although the thoughts of the past are happening in the now.


Past and future and even the present now are constructs. There are sensations in the now but where’s the now really?

And hi Tom!

Many thanks,
Helen.

[nemesis]

the shifts or whatever occurs were points in time which definitely have led to a more expansive or open less cognitive experience of life in the present

Quite an interesting story, don't you think? But is it true?

What is 'truth'?

Yes I can think back to when these thing's arose but that is just memory

Yes, great! Just memory... and what exactly is 'memory'?
Are there things that happened back in the days and memory about these things exists or is it all just a (very believable) story created by thought?

Past and future and even the present now are constructs.

Yeah, just thought doing it's thing... do you want it to stop creating these constructs?

There are sensations in the now but where’s the now really?

This 'now', can you experience it? Just three seconds ago you stated that it's a thought based construct. ;)
Is it more than just a thought/word? Does it have any power?

[Legg]

Hi Tom,

the shifts or whatever occurs were points in time which definitely have led to a more expansive or open less cognitive experience of life in the present
Quite an interesting story, don't you think? But is it true

?

Not sure what is meant by true here really. Something definitely changed. So it wouldn’t be true if I said it didn’t.

I am guessing you are pointing to only things in the construct of now are true? In direct experience? That’s an aspect of truth for sure.

I have come from a different training (I know you said to leave it in a box) but it is relevant here to understand my background. I am sure that the Tibetan training is also based upon awakening?
The life changing thing I am talking about is what the Tibetans call ‘Nature of mind’ there was the realisation of the clarity of everything. The clarity / clearness of the fabric of everything. It’s something that cannot be unseen. I don’t think there is a story here? Other than a sharing of my history.

It’s helpful for you to know that I have this understanding and maybe it will need to be deconstructed along the way. Although I am confident that it is an aspect of awakening.
Although of course confidence is another construct, but I am attempting to communicate in a dualistic language!

You may have touched upon something here as I had an emotional response to your reply.
I will keep open minded about it possibly being a story too.

Yes, great! Just memory... and what exactly is 'memory'?
Are there things that happened back in the days and memory about these things exists or is it all just a (very believable) story created by thought?

Memories are thoughts that bring up sensations in the present thats what seems to make memories so compelling. However, weirdly the thoughts /stories of the memories are happening in the now. That’s how I currently see it anyway? How do I know it’s a memory? It seems to be familiar with other stories of the past that have happened in some way. It not like the imaginary future projections. Though there isn’t much difference in past or future.

Past and future and even the present now are constructs.
Yeah, just thought doing it's thing... do you want it to stop creating these constructs?

Can the constructs be stopped? Or do you see the constructs for what they are. In the seeing are they stopped? I do want to go through the gate and I will deal with whatever needs to be addressed.
Thanks for helping me.

There are sensations in the now but where’s the now really?”

This 'now', can you experience it? Just three seconds ago you stated that it's a thought based construct. ;)
Is it more than just a thought/word? Does it have any power?

Yes maybe the now can be experienced through the senses but the senses if looked into can be elusive which is why I am not sure of the validity of a now experienced with the senses. Although there is only power (not sure about the uses of the word power but don’t know what else to call it) in the now(s). Everything can only happen in the now. Yet at the same time what’s really happening?

I think the word ‘now’ needs to also be understood? Otherwise ‘now’ could gain too much solidity? An open ‘now’ I could go with but not a ‘now’ that exists.

Best wishes and thanks,
Helen.
I am working tomorrow so I don’t imagine that I will be able to write.

All of this does seem very intellectual. Is this fetter seen with the intellect? I have a bit of a hang up about intelligence as I don’t have much of an education and it does concern me that I may not be intelligent enough!
Although I will give it a go that’s for sure.

[nemesis]

Not sure what is meant by true here really.

By true I mean that it is experienced right now and not just a thought story.

I am sure that the Tibetan training is also based upon awakening?

I don't know anything about Tibetan training either but my guess is that the 'goal' is the same. Maybe the approach differs but fundamentally it's all about seeing what there really is.

I don’t think there is a story here? Other than a sharing of my history.

So this history is not a story? What is it then?

It’s helpful for you to know that I have this understanding and maybe it will need to be deconstructed along the way. Although I am confident that it is an aspect of awakening.

This 'understanding' that you talk about, what do you mean by that?
The thoughts that say 'everything is one'?

We don't look for understanding nor do we try to make sense of anything. We're looking at what is really there right now. We're looking at what all this fuss is about. We're looking for the core.

You may have touched upon something here as I had an emotional response to your reply.

That's what my message was supposed to do. Trigger an emotional response. Because if such a thing happens and it is seen for what it is, we can look behind it. Look at what it is guarding.
I'm very happy that you immediately saw what happened there. Well done. :)

Memories are thoughts that bring up sensations in the present that's what seems to make memories so compelling.

Please try and remember something that brings up these sensations and then just observe.

How does it work?
What's first? The emotion or the thought?
Where is the connection between the two?
Is this connection between thought and emotion more than just a story?

I do want to go through the gate and I will deal with whatever needs to be addressed.
Thanks for helping me.

That's great, we'll do that! I'm glad to be able to take this path with you.

Yes maybe the now can be experienced through the senses but the senses if looked into can be elusive which is why I am not sure of the validity of a now experienced with the senses

If for a moment you leave all thoughts behind, every last one of them, and just focus on what is really there - is there a 'now'?

All of this does seem very intellectual. Is this fetter seen with the intellect? I have a bit of a hang up about intelligence as I don’t have much of an education and it does concern me that I may not be intelligent enough!
Although I will give it a go that’s for sure.

The 'intellect' is a thought based construct just like everything else. There's no need to listen to thoughts here as their content does not interest us. We're looking behind them at what is really there.

Don't think about your answers and don't try to give the 'right' answers. Just write what the direct experience tells you.
And no, I'm not asking you to write in a nondual kind of way, just write what comes up. It's not about 'winning the game', it's about asking questions 'til there's nothing left that needs talking about. I am asking the questions and you write whatever you can find in your direct experience about this without interpreting. We're not building new constructs, we're questioning all the old ones.

There's an exercise I would like you to do:

Please take an apple or another fruit and place it in front of you.
Look at it for a bit.
And now tell me:

What do you really see?
And what is just an interpretation?

Is there really an apple?


I wish you a nice day at work.
Take all the time you need with the exercises. :)

[Legg]

This 'understanding' that you talk about, what do you mean by that?
The thoughts that say 'everything is one

'?

FYI, I did not say everything is one! I am definitely not that deluded, as I still experience many inconsistencies and weird life stuff 🙂

This is not a thought or thinking that I have been trying to describe! It’s an experience in the here and now without thought to do with perception (possibly). It was as though how I perceived cleared.

I don’t think there is a story here? Other than a sharing of my history.
So this history is not a story? What is it then?

That’s exactly what I was trying to say the history is the story but not the seeming change of perception.

Will write the rest of the response tomorrow.

I am on my phone right now and I am finding the small screen a bit difficult!

Thanks Tom,
Helen.

[nemesis]

Before you read this, please do the exercise from my last post.

It was as though how I perceived cleared.

I understand. Something happened. But thought describes that, says the perception became more 'clear'. I know, that's a very tough question, but: Is there really such a thing as 'clear' or 'unclear'? Is there an Apple? Or is it just a construct, a description of the direct experience?

Here's another exercise:

For 10 minutes please write down everything that you experience like this:

I hear the birds.
I feel my shoulder, it hurts.
I think about tomorrow.
I feel as if I have to eat something.

For the next 10 minutes, write what you experience, but without using the 'I' or the things that are experienced. Just write:

Smelling
Breathing
Hearing
Tasting
Feeling
Hearing
Seeing
Smelling

And so on. You can do the second part of the exercise anywhere, at any time (in your head). Just focus on the 'percieving' itself and not on what thought tells you that it is, what you percieve.

Have fun. :)