From concepts to reality

[Ilona]

ok, there is noticing that there is no i need in thinking. good. is there any function for the entity I in any form or shape? if there was, what would that be? how would it work?

[Canute]

ok, there is noticing that there is no i need in thinking. good. is there any function for the entity I in any form or shape? if there was, what would that be? how would it work?

In trying to pursue this inquiry, for example? Intention arises, doubt about "my" ability arises, thinking about a me that has or doesn´t have the ability doesn´t require an actual "I", just the thought of one. The thought of an existant "I" does affect other thoughts much, but that process doesn´t require an actual "I" either. Like the thought of Santa Claus affects a lot of behaviour this time of year, without an actual Santa existing. As far as I know...

Survival needs? Collected or frantic planning and acting to provide for the needs of the body also happens. It consists of thoughts, fears and worries perhaps, other emotions and of course actions. None of that requires an "I" to happen.

Dreams? There´s certainly a sense of "I" when dreaming, but no actual "I" appears involved.

Keeping healthy? Concern, worry perhaps, sometimes even despair when ill, doing what seems supportive, or not. A sense of "me" being ill, but nothing beyond an ailing body and concerned thoughts and a spectrum of emotions can be detected. It all goes on fine without an actual "I".

Being in love? Works best when the focus is on what is loved. When focussing on the one who loves, something feels false, something is lost. Works fine, much better actually, without an "I".

Social life in general? Again and again, it´s seen how flow arrives when the sense of "I" fades, and is obstructed when "I" get big, vulnerable or seemingly real.

Getting things done? The play between resistance and willingness to get things done hums along without any need for an "I". Resistance grows when it´s "me" who has to get going.

Suffering? Yeah, when it comes to suffering arising from inner and outer drama, it really does seem to require an "I" to get going. A sense of "I", that is. But that´s all I ever could find, not a tangible "I" outside of thought.

Worrying about how others perceive "me"? Same thing, kicks off from the thought "I". No underlying reality ever encountered.

I see this Ilona. But I don´t feel different, and have no doubts the "I"-thought is just as enthralling when it decides to pounce next time. Something is not seen. Where do we go from here?

[Ilona]

look now at your direct experience, how does it work? notice how thoughts come, fingers type, what else is going on right now. is there any effort required for experience to happen? notice that all that IS happening by itself in the now. can there be a separate self in this picture? was there ever?

[Canute]

ilona :
look now at your direct experience, how does it work? notice how thoughts come, fingers type, what else is going on right now. is there any effort required for experience to happen? notice that all that IS happening by itself in the now.

can there be a separate self in this picture? was there ever?

Hah, I´ve been more eager for experience not to happen for most of my adult life! But yeah, it all rolls along without a separate self apparent. With body stuff and thought stuff it´s easier to see the abscence of a self. The sense of self is more convincing when it comes to intention, will, drive, initiative.

I still feel rather incompetent with this inquiry. It´s as if all the books I´ve read and the talks I´ve heard stand in the way of a direct investigation. Like I don´t trust my ability to directly inquire, a lack of traction. There´s a feeling of not being able to notice clearly, and coming up with answers from the head instead of from direct seeing.

But OK, let´s crash into the wall again! Perhaps a bit more flow-of-consciousness-writing might help the inquiry. Mouth chewing, fingers typing, eyes looking at a screen, a bit of a knot in the belly, shallow breathing, some restriction in the chest, thoughts, "I wont be able to do this", "I´m the one who´ll take my last breath never having seen truth", "am I exceptionally stupid or just unwilling to be honest?", what a barrage... Cheer up, Adyashanti says only the fakes don´t make it. I notice how the selfdisparaging thoughts strengthen the sense of me. But what the fuck is the underlying reality of that sense of me?! Have I ever, even once, come across anything more real and solid than a thought when looking for the me? I guess people believe in God, or angels, or the devil, for lifetimes without ever encountering any such thing beyond images and thoughts.

What about the sense of "I am", or "pure being", that I like to rest in when meditating? Ah, here´s some progress! Why make an entity of it, yes it feels like "I", but actually it´s a quality, a vibe, not an entity. It´s a resting place from thought, it feels more permanent than anything else, but why turn it into an entity? And if it´s so trustworthy, why do "I" keep forgetting about it when I most need it? Because no one is in charge, there´s no one home! Stuff happens, including the attempt to control experience, with varying but limited degrees of success. But "no one" is doing all that!

Still there´s a wish and an expectation to see this absence of an "I" much clearer and more unshakeably.

Let´s try your penultimate question

"Can there be a separate self in this picture?"

Wouldn´t there need to be some sort of dividing line for that separation to exist? Like, I´m here, as the subject, and experience is out/over there, as an object? Feeling around inside the body, looking around outside, I find no such dividing line. There´s a sense that I´m behind the eyes, but that really is just a habit, an assumption. What´s looking out? Seeing itself, not an entity, not an "I".

Deconstructing what never was is weird. Now I´ll try to find a self without going to a thought. Cold hands, but "my hands"? Really? A nervous, restless energy present, but "my energy"? On what basis do I take ownership, beyond an assumption, a habit? The "I-ing", "me-ing" and "my-ing" feels like a sad old jukebox, playing the same song over and over again. Is anyone listening anymore? Let´s get out of this sorry café, out into the fresh air!

I´m asking for some more directions now Ilona.

[Canute]

Ilona, I messed up the quote function in my last post. But I trust you´ll discern what´s your part and what´s mine.

[Ilona]

Don't worry about little technicalities, it does not matter.
yes, sense of being alive, beingness, amness is like a wave, we only assume that there is an entity behind because it has never been questioned.

how can you see an absence?
look at an object, like a pen or something in front of you now. you see an object. now take it away and hide it from you. can you see an absence of it? what do you see?

imagine you are holding a ball in between your hands. close your eyes, feel the weight, the shape the temperature. imagine it as vivid as you can. hold it there. now open your eyes. what happened to the ball? do you see an absence of the ball? was the ball destroyed?

can you see an absence? what can you see?

[Canute]

Don't worry about little technicalities, it does not matter.
yes, sense of being alive, beingness, amness is like a wave, we only assume that there is an entity behind because it has never been questioned.

how can you see an absence?
look at an object, like a pen or something in front of you now. you see an object. now take it away and hide it from you. can you see an absence of it? what do you see?

imagine you are holding a ball in between your hands. close your eyes, feel the weight, the shape the temperature. imagine it as vivid as you can. hold it there. now open your eyes. what happened to the ball? do you see an absence of the ball? was the ball destroyed?

can you see an absence? what can you see?

Yeah, thus it is. First, I see the object, from many angles. I take it away, and I see only empty space where the object was. Memory and thinking recollects the object, the image in my mind competes for my attention with the visuals, the absence and the space. An absence is just an absence, empty space. But thinking tries to reify, retain and solidify what isn´t present materially any longer. And no, I can´t see an abscence!

Second exercercise. Similar experience to the first. When I open my eyes, there´s still a ball in my mind. But in my hands, just space. Not an absence, not a shimmer, not a shadow of a ball. The ball was completely mental. Here again, I can´t see an absense. Speaking truth, an absence is nothing, outside of thinking. The physical ball wasn´t destroyed, because it never existed out there in the first place. Just like you can´t kill Santa, or the Easter bunny!

[Ilona]

Or the 'me'. It's not anywhere other than in the mind. And in the mind there are stories about me, but no me at all.

Now look again, is it true, that there is no entity behind word 'me' or not?

Tell please, what comes up.

[Canute]

Or the 'me'. It's not anywhere other than in the mind. And in the mind there are stories about me, but no me at all.

Now look again, is it true, that there is no entity behind word 'me' or not?

Tell please, what comes up.

Lots of vague and not-so-vague perceptions, memories and judgements around "me", but no entity anywhere. The whole notion of entity is looking less real. Where, anywhere, could an entity be found, that´s more than a concept? Can´t find one here, can´t find one anywhere else. Does experience actually have a subject, or is that term only valid in grammar?

Leaning into myself, like doing Douglas Hardings finger-pointing-experiment. The sense of being grows stronger, an aliveness, quiet, waiting, watching, not wanting anything. Feels like that is animating the body, that is the source of thought. But calling it an entity? Would be truer to call it energy, like electricity. It is aware.It feels intimate, close to home. But it doesn´t fit the word entity. Or me, or I or mine.

This is good. There´s also a half-experienced, half-imagined sense that something is hiding just out of sight.There´s an absence I can´t perceive, but also a presence that can´t be made into an object. This is what comes up now. Getting closer...

[Ilona]

I can see it is working..
there wont be any fireworks and no angels are coming down, shift is very subtle. you may not even notice, so no need to wait for it.

notice breathing and the tingling sensations, and awareness in which all is felt, is any of this personal? is this feeling contained in a body, is there a line between inside and outside? what is behind that feeling?

what is here now? what is real, as in does not disappear once you stop believing in it?

[Canute]

I can see it is working..
there wont be any fireworks and no angels are coming down, shift is very subtle. you may not even notice, so no need to wait for it.

notice breathing and the tingling sensations, and awareness in which all is felt, is any of this personal? is this feeling contained in a body, is there a line between inside and outside? what is behind that feeling?

what is here now? what is real, as in does not disappear once you stop believing in it?

The first paragraph is very helpful, Ilona. I do notice expecting reality to hit me pretty hard. Good to know it is more likely to creep up from behind. I´m starting to feel a bit like the only time I took magic mushrooms; "Anything happening yet? Anything different yet?" Until I later realised the buzz was there, without me seeing it coming.

First exercise. Tingling and breathing occurs in the body, thinking behind the eyes, seeing happens through the eyes, hearing happens through the ears. Does any of this require a me? No. Does a me influence any of that? No, only a sense of me influences that. Thoughts about seeing, hearing, breathing and tingling bounce at thoughts of me and mine. Is any of this personal? All of it feels like "my life", but familiarity doesn´t require a me either. Recognition without a subject.

Is this feeling contained in a body? It´s like different channels on the remote. Breathing and tingling and thinking seems to occur in the body, seeing and hearing more outside. The more I rest in all of it, the less true that outside/inside distinction feels. Behind the distinction there is a sense of a field, a whole, where all the impressions come and go. It´s like I have to loosen the grip of the visual version of reality. It is visual consciousness that creates and maintains the inside/outside duality. Now thought goes very, very quiet. It´s like what´s aware stops reaching out so much, leans back into itself. Breathing goes quieter. A sense of mystery. A sense of not knowing, but a relaxed not knowing.

Your next question Ilona; "what is here now? what is real, as in does not disappear once you stop believing in it?"

I´ve already described some of what´s here now above. More on this now. The body doesn´t require belief to be here. It´s less visual and more somatic now, the humming, the pulses, the breathing, the twitches draw attention more than how it´s shaped. Sounds and visible objects seem real, no belief required there. That´s all content, present because a container is there. What do all these things appear in? In that quietly aware space. At first it seems to have a location, in here, but more and more, it´s the whole, which doesn´t feel lika a location. An all without an I. No belief needed. Going a bit giddy here, not knowing growing loud again. Want to rest in this, articulating feels cumbersome. Over to you, Ilona.

[Ilona]

Good going. Getting very close.
Not knowing is the best place to be.
Let the doubt in, doubt all you ever known, then ask for truth to come through.

It's already happening anyway, watch it unfold..

Is there a you?

[Canute]

Good going. Getting very close.
Not knowing is the best place to be.
Let the doubt in, doubt all you ever known, then ask for truth to come through.

It's already happening anyway, watch it unfold..

Is there a you?

Thanks Ilona. Sweet new piece of homework. I had a very short night last night, and will try to get some rest now. I´ll carry the koan to bed, and continue tomorrow. It´s working on me...

[Canute]

Good going. Getting very close.
Not knowing is the best place to be.
Let the doubt in, doubt all you ever known, then ask for truth to come through.

It's already happening anyway, watch it unfold..

Is there a you?

OK, another day. Had a good nights rest, highly unusual for me! Something´s gone quiet inside since last night. The tendency to lean into a future with restlessness and sometimes anxiety isn´t there today. I do notice avoidance. A million things to tinker with, rather than focussing on the inquiry. Postponing me dying...

Had a long walk, allowing the mind to roam a bit. Here are a few snippets. Was there ever an entity anywhere? Isn´t assigning entity to what isn´t one and hasn´t got one a favourite pastime of human ignorance since the beginning of humans? Like the Vikings assuming Thor and his hammer were thundering, when it was just an impersonal process?

Second strand of thought. What if there isn´t a "me"? Blame and guilt and shame wouldn´t have anywhere to stick, ahh, what an uplifting prospect! Then it would be so much easier to feel strong, so called negative, emotions. Like a storm in an empty field, there´s nothing there to get hurt!

As you can see, the weather is pretty wild here today.

Then I mused, no me here, no you in anyone else either. It´s like moving through a party full of drunk people who don´t know they´re drunk. Relax, but stay sharp and don´t take anyone too seriously. When we wake up, we´ll all be slightly or acutely embarrassed about some things we said and did while drunk...

Noticing how almost everything I thought I knew has a hollow, false ring to it. Yes, but.. But I´m only starting to see what the but is about. The underlying assumption of a me, a you, a we and a them.

Most of my firmly held beliefs have been fading away for years. Talking to others, some present clear beliefs and standpoints in very convincing ways. But something inside goes sceptical, true but not right, right but not true, as one of my teachers said. I feel clumsy and inept for not being able to convincingly take a stand of my own.

Allowing myself to muse on, it´s striking how so much of what I´ve picked up in life is second hand, other peoples opinions. First my parents, then friends and colleagues, then spiritual friends and teachers. And when I voice one of these second hand opinions, I never sound convincing to myself. Like I´m faking it. Playing the role of "me", trying to polish an identity that is hollow, without a core. How fruitless, what a sad waste, how tired I am of that! And if there is no true identity in others either, then I could speak my own truth without worrying so much about how it will be received. Who is receiving? Just dance my dance, a ghost amongst ghosts!

Please, please, truth. Fill me up, shatter my illusions, cure my blindness! I don´t expect to gain anything at all, just to be relieved of the burden that makes life so hard. The burden is a lie. A big fat lie right at the center of life, it is the center I take to be me. Look, look for yourself. How the fuck have I swallowed this lie, breath by breath, day by day. I grew out of Santa Claus, I grew out of the Tooth Fairy, I even grew out of educate yourself, get a job, do what you´re told, get married, have kids and all will be fine. Isn´t it time I dropped the most damaging lie of them all, the lie of "I"? OK, I´m ranting a bit here, but it feels good. Working up some steam. I´ll just sit here and look for what´s really where I take myself to be, until I hear from you, Ilona.

[Ilona]

Brilliant, some anger and frustration is welcome at this place, let it burn, see the lie that has been living in the system for years feeding on shame, guilt and feeling of not enough.
It's all a lie.
Look at how beliefs a formed- passed in from one human to another through 'repeat after me' principle and accepted because it fits other beliefs.
Can you see that none of beliefs are true? None of them. All lies. Investigate.

Tell me, what do you know for sure,100%, be completely honest here.