From concepts to reality

[Canute]

Hi,
I´ve been meditating and seeking truth for over 20 years. Originally Theravadin Buddhist/Vipassana, but since 10 years more and more drawn to Advaita/Nondual traditions. I´ve read oh-so-many books, but feel I haven´t managed to see through the illusion of self in a transformative, lasting way. Today is a good day to die. Is there someone out there willing and able to help me?

Canute

[Canute]

I´m off to do stuff for a few hours. Eagerly hoping someone is available around 4 pm British time today Monday to help me unlock the gate...

Canute

[Ilona]

Welcome here :)
I'm up for helping you to die.

Tell me, what dies? And can something that is not real ever die?

[Canute]

"Tell me, what dies? And can something that is not real ever die?"
What I hope will die is my almost continous belief in "I". The idea "I" doesn´t have to die,ideas aren´t really alive, and a real "I" I´ve never come across, so that doesn´t seem alive in the first place either. Please replace "I" with "self" if that makes me more understandable to you, Ilona.

[Ilona]

Ok, so tell me now, what comes up when you let this thought in-

There is no separate self at all, no entity behind word 'me', none as in zero.

Thoughts, feelings?

[Canute]

by Ilona » November 28th, 2011, 5:41 pm

"Ok, so tell me now, what comes up when you let this thought in-

There is no separate self at all, no entity behind word 'me', none as in zero.

Thoughts, feelings?"

What comes up? Moments of quiet relief, intermittent excitement, feel a giddiness, the intellect doesn´t know what to do with "zero entity". Part of me has been soooo hungry to feel and see this clearly, part of me feels resigned and defeated. Some optimism arising now, maybe I´m not a lost case after all! I could rephrase all the above in Advaita-speak and exclude the first-person pronouns, but you know what I mean Ilona.
Thoughts? I´m stumped. Have I been living with a ghost all my life, a ghost called me? Whatever this "me" was supposed to be, it´s never been able to control thoughts, emotions or the body in any sustainable way. What would life be like without the ghost?

[Ilona]

good question.
imagine.

write up a story, what would life be like if there was no ghosts in humans? none at all.
paint a picture with words. lets see...

[Canute]

by Ilona » November 28th, 2011, 6:40 pm

"good question.
imagine.

write up a story, what would life be like if there was no ghosts in humans? none at all.
paint a picture with words. lets see..."

What if the ghost "me" wasn´t in me, or others? Everything wouldn´t just stop, that doesn´t seem to be how life is. I suspect we´d all be a lot less serious, laugh a lot more. "I´m not in control, you´re not in control, lets play!" We´d be feeling more, thinking less. We´d plan less, improvise more. The whole notion of intelligence would mutate, from emphazising smart to emphazising intuitive. We probably wouldn´t take individual ownership very seriously anymore, but focus more on who needs what. We wouldn´t worry much, because the futility of worrying would be so obvious.I like the sound of all that... What about me without the ghost of "me"? I suspect the anguish and sense of meaninglessness would lift, that all seems so tied up to "me". The sense of not-there-yet, there´s-something- fundamentally-false-and-wrong, that would evaporate. I now sense some of my utter exhaustion of living with a lie at the core. Would I still be able to function without "me"? Hell yes. I´m seriously reduced in my functionality by listening to the fearful insistent voice of "me". I´m fed up with being so easily upset, so embarassingly easily threatened. I´m sure I would be able to feel life and all in it so much better without all the resistance the "me"-thought generates.
So yes, Ilona, no reservations about the theory of life without the lie of "me". Any further suggestions on how to pass through the gate?

[Ilona]

you are getting close.
look around.
everything already is as you described. and always was.
assuming that there is an entity that drives the body is also part of what is. Don't try to fight it.

notice, where do thoughts come from? can you control them? can you know what next thought gonna be?
what is there, when there are no thoughts?

[Canute]

by Ilona » November 28th, 2011, 7:34 pm

you are getting close.
look around.
everything already is as you described. and always was.
assuming that there is an entity that drives the body is also part of what is. Don't try to fight it.

notice, where do thoughts come from? can you control them? can you know what next thought gonna be?
what is there, when there are no thoughts?

I´m a radio. Thoughts come from somewhere else. I just recieve. So no, no control over thoughts. I can´t know what the next one´s going to be. Except if I deliberately, and rather mechanically, think something. It then has to be simple, like "am i hungry?" or "my hands are cold". Having meditated for almost 25 years, I am familiar with "no thought"-moments too. There is still physical sensations, visuals, sounds, a ringing sound in my head, and what to me feels like just plain being. Not being this or that, just a vibrancy. It feels alive, but unformed. It seems mysterious, yet so intimate. My breathing lightens when I focus on that, a sigh of relief and fuller breathing.

[Ilona]

very good ..

ok, now look at the mind as if it is a labelling machine.
take a slow look around the room and notice how it labels things, brings memories up when you gaze at some items, how it automatically narrates what is going on. notice that.

then look at labels themselves.
there are labels to things that are here and you can touch, feel, see.. like table, chair, wall, lamp.
and then there are also labels that point to other thoughts, not physical things..

can you tell me, is there a batman in the room?
have you even looked?

[Canute]

very good ..

ok, now look at the mind as if it is a labelling machine.
take a slow look around the room and notice how it labels things, brings memories up when you gaze at some items, how it automatically narrates what is going on. notice that.

then look at labels themselves.
there are labels to things that are here and you can touch, feel, see.. like table, chair, wall, lamp.
and then there are also labels that point to other thoughts, not physical things..

can you tell me, is there a batman in the room?
have you even looked?

Hmm, yeah, I get the sense of how the labels that refer to immaterial things also carry memories, feelings, judgements, images, associations. Like the label "history", or "love", or "spirituality". Don´t even think of asking me to go to the label "me" and see the sludge that arises with it!...
Don´t quite get the batman question. I haven´t looked exactly everywhere, he could be hiding in one or two places. But I´d be oh so surprised! And he´d have to be pretty darn small. Please give me another nudge Ilona!

[Ilona]

look now at the label I.

notice how it is a word that precedes other words just because this is how language is constructed.

i breath-- beathing is happening. tell me, what is breathing? is there a breather behind the word I?
i sit-- is there a sitter?
i think-- thinking is happening, thoughts are appearing by themselves as mind labels everything, is there a thinker?

what do you see?

[Canute]

look now at the label I.

notice how it is a word that precedes other words just because this is how language is constructed.

i breath-- beathing is happening. tell me, what is breathing? is there a breather behind the word I?
i sit-- is there a sitter?
i think-- thinking is happening, thoughts are appearing by themselves as mind labels everything, is there a thinker?

what do you see?

Illuminating with the language pointer. Never reflected on how the "I" tends to lead each sentence!

And no, the body breathes, the body sits, no "one" is required or present for that. Thoughts are moving through, the idea of a "thinker" remains just that, a thought amongst others. What do I see? That the notion of "me in charge" is laughable. I also notice something relaxing inside, I don´t have to control.
Ilona, I´m not done with this part yet, but home just got a lot busier. I´ll sign off and get back to it tomorrow. Thanks for your time and guidance!

[Canute]

look now at the label I.

notice how it is a word that precedes other words just because this is how language is constructed.

i breath-- beathing is happening. tell me, what is breathing? is there a breather behind the word I?
i sit-- is there a sitter?
i think-- thinking is happening, thoughts are appearing by themselves as mind labels everything, is there a thinker?

what do you see?

24 hours later, picking up where I left off.
Sitting in an armchair, breathing. Breathing happens, all by itself. When actively observed, will intermittently gets involved, wants to do breathing. Relaxing happens, looking for an I, a breather. No one there, but something seems to be there. It´s like trying to catch movement in darkness. As if a subject is hiding just outside the visual range. It is very still, but tangibly present.
Is there a sitter? Will seems cool about sitting, not much doing and controlling to be done there. Weight, gravity, a force of its own. The sitter? Let me turn attention towards that. The body sits, no I needed. There is a vague sense of "I", but it isn´t connected to sitting.
I think? Wish I could, in a way! But no, thinking bobs along on its own. A memory, an impulse, a worry, a secondary worry, a vagueness, silence, another thought, "should something be happening?", interest arises in the sense of "I", like trying to see my eyeball, something relaxes, silence, a brief worry about whether this is going anywhere, it just goes on and on and on. But no "I" required for all that. A thought that there´d be a lot less thinking happening if the idea of an "I" wasn´t believed in.
What do I see? I see processes going on, physical and mental, without any "I" owning or steering them. And there´s some peace in that, some relaxing. Please hit me again, Ilona.