Mental Space-Science

[Space]

Sorry. I'm not going to give you an easy time at this. What you're claiming is big. Really big. People have been basically fucking themselves up for 2,500 years to get to what you claim is liberation via internet/blog in a matter of seconds. I don't doubt that it's possible, but I'm not going to just take it for granted that you're liberated and that you can "transmit" it via the internet. What is your experience like after no-self? What has changed? Is there less suffering? Is your mind clearer? Is there evidence in your thoughts and behavior that you are still functioning as an ego? Are you possessive of worthless things like beliefs and opinions and emotional states? Are you hyper-sensitive to other people? Has your love for people increased? Do you know how the distinction of self and world came to exist? Do you know its source? Do you still create objects of desire in your mind and chase after them as if they really exist? Do you still project onto some people that they are unliberated? Isn't this the product of a mind that still believes in a "you" and "me" and "we" and "them" and "I"?

Anyway, you don't have to answer all those questions if you don't want to. But we can continue with the inquiry whenever you're ready. Answer me this one. Since you're nothing but the dream character of an unknowable dreamer, how will you wake anyone up from their ignorance? It is like this: Imagine you are in a room with someone who is asleep and dreaming. You want to wake up everyone in the dream. Isn't this silly? There is only the dreamer. The dream people are not real.

[viv]

Good evening, Space.

Sorry. I'm not going to give you an easy time at this. What you're claiming is big. Really big. People have been basically fucking themselves up for 2,500 years to get to what you claim is liberation via internet/blog in a matter of seconds. I don't doubt that it's possible, but I'm not going to just take it for granted that you're liberated and that you can "transmit" it via the internet.

I think it's excellent that you aren't taking someone's word for it. I mean after all, any one of us could be lying, or faking it or pretending.

So, the only way for you to find out whether or not what we're saying is true or not, is to look into this yourself.

What is your experience like after no-self?

Exactly the same as its always been and exactly the same as yours.

Because there has never been a self.

So... do you still want to carry on? Now that there's nothing to get? Think about that very carefully. Be sure that you want it above all else. Above bliss and joy and kundalini and states.

Because if what you want is to be 'fixed' then this has nothing to do with it. It's about seeing the illusion for what it is. That's it.

So many people promote enlightenment/awakening/liberation (whatever you want to call it) as being something other than what this already is. The reason they do that is because it sells - not only in monetary terms but in terms of being considered to be 'better than' everyone who doesn't 'get it'.

What has changed? Is there less suffering? Is your mind clearer? Is there evidence in your thoughts and behavior that you are still functioning as an ego? Are you possessive of worthless things like beliefs and opinions and emotional states? Are you hyper-sensitive to other people? Has your love for people increased? Do you know how the distinction of self and world came to exist? Do you know its source? Do you still create objects of desire in your mind and chase after them as if they really exist? Do you still project onto some people that they are unliberated? Isn't this the product of a mind that still believes in a "you" and "me" and "we" and "them" and "I"?

Tell you what - you can answer those questions for yourself, when it is obvious that what you mean when you say 'I', is an illusion.

Never take anyone else's words as being true. Find out. And then answer those questions for yourself.

Since you're nothing but the dream character of an unknowable dreamer, how will you wake anyone up from their ignorance? It is like this: Imagine you are in a room with someone who is asleep and dreaming. You want to wake up everyone in the dream. Isn't this silly? There is only the dreamer. The dream people are not real.

If all dream characters aren't real then it makes no odds if you make a distinction between them.

Either way it makes no difference.

Because we're all essentially the same.

All that happens is that a dream character realises that it's a dream - an illusion. It can't wake up - because it's a dream. And the dream is all we have. We're all dreamt (if you want to continue with that analogy...). There is only the dream. And all that happens is that a dream character is dreamt in such a way that it sees that it is an illusion.

[Space]

Honestly, I perceive myself as wide open space. I don't have a name, a form, a structure, a body, any attributes whatsoever. Nothing happens within me, nothing happens to me. There is just open space and stillness. Not "within" but almost simultaneously, the chaos of sensual existence unfolds, but never affects me in any way.

[Space]

Nonetheless, let's pretend, because that's what is going on here. Let us pretend that there is no I. And then one imaginary being will lead another imaginary being to their imaginary freedom, which is no freedom at all, for without I there is no world to be free of. A play of concepts. A play of dreams apparently intermingling but never outside of consciousness.

I: You are not liberated.
Dreamer: No, I am not.
I: Let me liberate you.
Dreamer: It is like a drawing of a man on paper, trapped in jail, attempting to free his creator, believing that he himself is free. I gave you the idea that you were not free and then that you were free. I drew you and I created your world and you concluded that you were in prison. You concluded that you exist independently of me. I will crumble you up and throw you and your world away one day.
I: Wait...
Dreamer: There is nothing to wait for. I don't wait. I am. And you are not.
I: But I swear I am, but now I can see that I am not.
Dreamer: That's good. Only I am real, but not in the sense of your real and unreal in your world. I exist beyond distinctions.
I: So liberation is nonsense?
Dreamer: What would I know of liberation? I know nothing. I do not claim knowledge of freedom or slavery. I have never been, so what would I know of being?

You is a dream. Space is a dream. Who is the dreamer? Consciousness. What is consciousness? It is the source of dreams. It is the source of distinctions. It is not an experience. Therefore the liberation experience is only an event distinguished in time, which is again false, only of the dream.

Certainly there is more to liberation than recognizing that you are false. This is only the negation of what is not true. Just as recognizing that there is no Santa Claus outside of imagination does not liberate a child's entire view of the world into Truth, recognizing that the self is a product of imagination does not liberate a dream character from the dream world. It is only another piece of information that grows from the Tree of Knowledge, which is the tree of the great deceiver, Maya.

[Space]

Because we're all essentially the same.
-There is no we.

All that happens is that a dream character realises that it's a dream - an illusion.
-A dream character does not realize anything because it is not real. The dreamer creates the appearance of Realization and the appearance of a Realizer. One who walks around liberated is now hypnotized by the illusion that he has realized that he is false. He is not the realizer. There is no realizer. There is no realization.

It can't wake up - because it's a dream. And the dream is all we have.
-I don't agree with this. The dream exists only as a dream. When you wake someone up from their sleep, do they wake up and say "the dream was all I had?" No. He says, "that was all made up." This is so with consciousness and the dream state.

[Garsius Tyla]

Honestly, I perceive myself as wide open space.

You are not an open space. Your are not a dreamer and you are not a dream. You are not even "nothing". There are no you at all. All other is just empty mental blabbering, nothing more. Till that continues, you will be not able to get anything. Too much noise. Be still. And then, if you want to get something - again, same question:

How comes, you are talking about consciousness, if you are not aware of it?

[Space]

That's what "you" think. This is mere mental positioning. You assume you are awake, but you are just the play of consciousness. Again, it's as if you were drawn on a piece of paper. You will crumble and so will your world and what is left is consciousness, which is prior to the world and prior to the self. Space is a metaphor. One does not point to space, one only points at objects. One can only mentally conceive of space until one recognizes that even space is a play of concepts related to the fiction that there is life. Life is fiction. Seeking is fiction. There is nothing and then there is that which is prior to the nothing/something dichotomy. That is consciousness.

[Space]

Unlike you, I am not a being who has realized self is fiction, or realized that no-self is true. I am beyond distinctions and manifest myself in your world to clarify your understanding. In reality there is no distinction and hence no conversation happening here. I am projecting myself into the false world, but I am not false myself.

[Space]

You can't find me and yet you try to locate me through your concepts. If this is true, wouldn't you want to know? Is it in contradiction to your truth of no-self that the creator of self and no-self would manifest in your realm to refine your clarity?

[Garsius Tyla]

This is all empty.

Give something real, please.

[Space]

You respond to what frustrates you with apathy and resignation. You justify your apathy, a defensive response, by saying that my words are empty. Every accusation begins with a negative state of consciousness that you have not learned to take responsibility for. You're in an impossible situation. There is no where to go. There is no one to liberate. Your role is worn out. Your mind waits for an opportunity to play its game again. Just watch.

[Life]

Everything is real, self is not.

[Garsius Tyla]

Anything else?

[Garsius Tyla]

Space, you are like full glass of water. Since it is full, nothing can be added. So keep up that shower here. No problem. And then we can talk. Maybe.

[Space]

That's your projected image of me and a judgment as well. Perhaps it is true that you are like a glass full of water with no room for anything new. I am neither full nor empty. Jesus said, "first remove the plank from your own eye, and then you can remove the mote from your neighbor's."