Vikasana & Forgetmenots thread

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay.

Thank you for your message.

There has been exploring and seeing that there is no such thing as as a separate independent entity/self that is the controller, doer, thinker, feeler or sayer. Apologies if the shifts in perception about the idea of the illusory self and what life is were not addressed in the last reply.

You say paradoxically seeing through the illusory self can bring about changes to the 'seeming character' and that's what I was describing. It wasn't said there was a controller/doer creating the changes/experiences.

There is experience of thoughts that there may be fruits from seeing though an illusory self which are simply actual experience of thought arising which there's no control over.

I would like to continue with LU until my thread has been completed.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

There has been exploring and seeing that there is no such thing as as a separate independent entity/self that is the controller, doer, thinker, feeler or sayer. Apologies if the shifts in perception about the idea of the illusory self and what life is were not addressed in the last reply.

No apologies needed. I do need to check that you don't have expectations about what may or may not happen to the seeming character. This, to me, would be me perpetrating false hope and that would be unkind. Nothing can be known until it is known in the moment of whatever is unfolding - and outside of that, as mentioned this exploration is not about changing the character, it is to see that you are NOT the character.

So from when we started to now...what shifts have you noticed. Can you give me some examples from your daily life please.

I would like to continue with LU until my thread has been completed.

And we can certainly do that now that we are both clear about what this exploration is actually about.

Love, Kay

[Vikasana]

So from when we started to now...what shifts have you noticed. Can you give me some examples from your daily life please.

Seeing that there isn't a separate entity choosing, doing and controlling situations and that there is no control over circumstances occurring, sensations arising, thoughts arising, songs pooping up, etc. The future being unknown and uncertain and where life may go. Seeing others and thoughts to express this to others such as attending Buddhist centre.

An example being seeing there is no control over being accepted accepted onto a University course. Also seeing there's no control over the replies received from yourself.

Having thoughts of expectations but seeing that that is actual experience of thoughts.

Seeing the label 'body' is experience of sensations and shapes and colours and being with sensations rather than thoughts/sense of a separate entity.

Using 'I' less when writing.

Thanks Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

How does it feel to see what you have seen to date? I want you to check in with the body..yes...it's paradoxical..but how does it feel in the body? Is the body heavy, light, is the mind busy or calmer...how does it feel?

Kay

[Vikasana]

How does it feel to see what you have seen to date? I want you to check in with the body..yes...it's paradoxical..but how does it feel in the body? Is the body heavy, light, is the mind busy or calmer...how does it feel?

Hi Kay.

Experience is mixed but particularly when time and attention is given to just sitting in a chair and doing little or some enquiry the mind is quite a lot less busy and more with sensations and at times when I've done this there's been a very calm and relaxed sensation and lighter feeling. That's occurred at least three times quite recently.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

What I am trying to ascertain is how you feel now compared to when we started this exploration. Has there been a shift...even subtle shift? Have you noticed any perceptual changes? What is different about how you see yourself and life? Has the idea about being a separate independent entity shifted at all? If so...can you give me some examples.

Kay

[Vikasana]

What I am trying to ascertain is how you feel now compared to when we started this exploration. Has there been a shift...even subtle shift? Have you noticed any perceptual changes? What is different about how you see yourself and life? Has the idea about being a separate independent entity shifted at all? If so...can you give me some examples.

Hi Kay.

I would say there has been a subtle shift and a weakening about being a separate independent entity since we started this exploration. Life is a bit smoother. Some examples are:

- When doing a tapping technique above the bridge of the 'nose' seeing there is no 'tapping' or 'body being tapped'. They are just experience of sensations.

-Seeing a fearful thought is just experience of thought and not sensation.

-Seeing that 'frustration' with one work colleague or others is just thought and sensation and that they are not to blame for experience.

-Seeing there is no separate 'I' from experiences.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for sharing and being patient with my persistence to know how it feels. This exploration is not so much about the intellectual understanding...although that does help, but more so in how you feel when you see what is actually happening/appearing. How does it feel to see that there is no you who is the thinker, feeler, doer and sayer; and when you put this seeing, these realisations to what is happening in 'your' daily life...how does this make you feel when you look at what SEEMS to be happening to a character called 'Patrick' and what is actually happening as seen by actual experience?
Fear can arise, however, there are other feelings other than fear that also arise when it becomes clearer that there is no separate self that stuff is happening to.

The belief is that there is an "I" that is in the body, and since the body is what contains 'me', then that what is happening in a body is happening to 'me'.

So, let's see if we can locate the separate self.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Relax for a few minutes - take calming breaths.

For 30 to 60 seconds each, do these exercises:
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where the “I/me” is located.
Touch the exact location of "I/me".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "I/me" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find?
Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "I/me” (If any.)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of actual experience.


Kay

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay.

As well as noticing feelings of resistance and anxiety during this exploration I've also noticed other feelings emerging of wonder/excitement/interest, aliveness/energy, peace/relief, sadness/tearfulness, gratitude/love.

[quoteWere you able to find and feel "I/me" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find?
Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "I/me” (If any.)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of actual experience.
][/quote]

-Feelings of "I/me" wasn't found in any direct way.
-"I/me" isn't anywhere.
-Sensations were found and thoughts but no "I/me" and pointing to an "I/me" couldn't be done.
-There were't any sensations identifying "I/me" just sensations.

Thank you Kay.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Patrick,

There were't any sensations identifying "I/me" just sensations.

Lovely! So in actual experience a body cannot be found and sensations are simply sensations, can an "I" be found that is actually experiencing?

Let's look a the idea of time as there is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay Thank you for message.

Lovely! So in actual experience a body cannot be found and sensations are simply sensations, can an "I" be found that is actually experiencing?

An "I" cannot be found that is actually experiencing.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

-"Now" moving along or one 'moment' giving way to the next or actual experience of one event following another cannot be found.

-The present moment moving cannot be found.

-A beginning to 'this moment' cannot be found.

- How long the 'now' doesn't lasts cannot be found.

-The 'now' doesn't start or end.

-The 'now' doesn't become the past.

-The 'past' cannot be found in actual experience.

-There are thoughts about 'time', not actual experience of 'time'.

There is some confusion and uncertainty about theses questions and answers.

A friend suggested I download LU app but my phone internet is playing up but I have it on my computer and will look through the quotes.

After Friday 26th I will be busy at the weekend and probably won't answer messages until Monday 29th. I am off all next week from work so I will probably be answering every day next week.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

There is some confusion and uncertainty about theses questions and answers.

I suggest that you take your time with the questions and look carefully.

A friend suggested I download LU app but my phone internet is playing up but I have it on my computer and will look through the quotes.

Please don't. I prefer that you just be with this thread and exploration and not become confused with other pointers etc.

After Friday 26th I will be busy at the weekend and probably won't answer messages until Monday 29th. I am off all next week from work so I will probably be answering every day next week.

No worries :)

Kay

[Vikasana]

Thank you Kay.

I will stick to your guidance rather than any other pointers and I will take my time to look at time questions on Thursday evening and get back to you then.

Regards Patrick.

[Vikasana]

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Hi Kay.

There is no experience of the 'now' moving along a line of time or one 'moment' giving way to the next or of one event 'following' another.

The 'present moment' isn't moving so how fast cannot be found.

A point where 'this moment' began cannot be found in the 'present moment'.

How long it's lasts cannot be found in the 'present moment'.

The 'now' doesn't start or end.

The 'now' doesn't become the past.

There isn't 'past' just thoughts about 'past'.

There isn't actual experience of 'time' just thoughts about 'time'.

Thanks Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

So what exactly is the Now?

Kay