Waking up is my greatest desire

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lee,

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, though separating the mental image of the body form from actual sensation is sticky. It can be experienced if it is sat with long enough, though it doesn’t last long before mental image comes back.

There is no need to separate mental image of the body from AE. It just needs to be seen that the mental image, is AE of thought and therefore is also AE but is not the AE of a body! So what is appearing is AE of thought, however can an actual body be found in the mental image and can an actual “I” be found in the mental image? You are simply looking for what we are looking at (ie the body in this instance) and then looking to see if you can find an “I” there as well.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

Inside and outside are not AE – only sensation.

Wonderful! So is there a ‘me here’ and an ‘out there’?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The word/label ‘body’ refers to sensation and colour.

The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to AE of thought. Thought points to sensation and colour and labels them 'body', however can an actual body be found?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensation with eyes closed; sensation and colour with eyes open.

The AE of the body is thought.
Thought points to sensation and labels it ‘body’. Can an actual body be found in the sensation?

Just wanted to add, strong focus on AE in meditation is bringing a sensation of the body expanded out beyond the usual sensations of a 'confined' body. All the 'senses' including sound and 'blackness' are also expanded out as one - very hard to describe.

We are not looking for some sort of special experience to tell us that there is no separate self, we are LOOKING to see if an actual separate self can be found anywhere.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lee....you still with me?

Kay

[Freakyboo]

I'm here Kay. Have had a lot on this week and there were a lot of exercises to do, which all take time. Nearly there.

Lee

[forgetmenot]

No worries...if you can just drop me a line and let me know. Sometimes people just drop off and don't come back and as there are many at the gate waiting for a guide, I would prefer to know what is happening than to wait and leave people waiting longer than necessary if I am free to guide someone else. So, by all means take your time..but just let me know that you are bust etc....I would appreciate that. :)

Kay :)

[Freakyboo]

Ok, my apologies.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

Inside and outside are not AE – only sensation.

Wonderful! So is there a ‘me here’ and an ‘out there’?

No, all is arising as sensations in AE – seeing, hearing, smelling, sensing.

The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to AE of thought. Thought points to sensation and colour and labels them 'body', however can an actual body be found?

No.

The AE of the body is thought.
Thought points to sensation and labels it ‘body’. Can an actual body be found in the sensation?

No

Just wanted to add, strong focus on AE in meditation is bringing a sensation of the body expanded out beyond the usual sensations of a 'confined' body. All the 'senses' including sound and 'blackness' are also expanded out as one - very hard to describe.

We are not looking for some sort of special experience to tell us that there is no separate self, we are LOOKING to see if an actual separate self can be found anywhere.

Ok – just reporting on the AE of sensation of not being ‘confined’ to where thought says ‘body’ usually is.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

It was noticed that what was in the mirror was just an image made of colour that was not connected to and completely separate from, felt sensations.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

Sensation is felt, while thought labels the moving colours ‘moving hand.’

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

No the image is separate to any thought of ‘me’ or ‘my body.’

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

Only a gradation of colours which suggest shape. No ‘body’ is found beyond thought of ‘body.’

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

From only the mirror image only, there is no ‘knowledge’ that there are legs, as legs cannot be seen – only thought and mental image suggests there are legs.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

No, only sensations.

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Only thought says ‘walking.’ There is only sensation.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

No, only sensations and thoughts/mental images about ‘body.’

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

‘Room’ is just a gradations of colours/images that appear, along with sensations labelled ‘walking.’

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lee,

Lovely looking as usual.

We are not looking for some sort of special experience to tell us that there is no separate self, we are LOOKING to see if an actual separate self can be found anywhere.

Ok – just reporting on the AE of sensation of not being ‘confined’ to where thought says ‘body’ usually is.

Lovely, yes. :)

Okay, so we have looked at quite a lot so far. How are you feeling about what has been looked at? From when we first began this exploration to now, how are you feeling? Have you noticed any changes?

Kay

[Freakyboo]

Hello Kay,

Okay, so we have looked at quite a lot so far. How are you feeling about what has been looked at? From when we first began this exploration to now, how are you feeling? Have you noticed any changes?

Well, the whole worldview has been revolutionized for one thing haha, since literally everything has had to be unlearned – this was fairly unsettling at first but is now feeling more grounded. Experience is no longer taken for granted as ‘me’ viewing an outside world – the ‘me’ is often looked for and never found. All sights, sounds, smells, sensations etc are arising out of the moment and one with the knowing of them – though thought and identification with thought is often still very sticky in certain situations - and on certain days.

Sensations labelled ‘anxiety’ or ‘pride’ for example are now experienced as sensation separate from their label and will generally quicky dissipate when consciously experienced, though will sometimes remain hanging around for a while – they do not have the power they used to have (so far).
There has been a general increased experience of peace, relaxation and well-being (most days). Thought is still very busy though it is slowly getting easier to experience it as arising and passing – very slowly haha. Meditation has become deeper with awareness of AE – a wonderful way to be.

A wonderful gift. Thank you Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lee,

What a wonderful read your post is! :)

though thought and identification with thought is often still very sticky in certain situations - and on certain days.

Yep, this will continue to happen, until it doesn’t, but it is simply a matter of looking to see what IS and not just go with what thought says IS.

Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This is also happening in ‘real’ life. There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of the story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment.

Sensations labelled ‘anxiety’ or ‘pride’ for example are now experienced as sensation separate from their label and will generally quicky dissipate when consciously experienced, though will sometimes remain hanging around for a while – they do not have the power they used to have (so far).

Yes! :)

There has been a general increased experience of peace, relaxation and well-being (most days). Thought is still very busy though it is slowly getting easier to experience it as arising and passing – very slowly haha. Meditation has become deeper with awareness of AE – a wonderful way to be.

Nice :)

Okay, so let’s keep digging. This time - let’s look a time! Lol

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[Freakyboo]

Hi Kay,

What a wonderful read your post is! :)

Thanks to you, Kay. 😊

Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This is also happening in ‘real’ life. There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of the story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment.

Great analogy that really helps, thanks.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

Not in AE, no. “Now” just is. Only thought presumes a line of time.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No, there are no ‘moments’ like snapshots, followed by another snapshot moment.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

ACTUAL experience is the eternal NOW. For one event to follow another would presume AE being in the past AND present, which is not the case. Only thought says that one event follows another.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

The present moment does not move. It always ‘is.’ Only thought says it is moving like a flowing river.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

LOL these questions are awesome 😊. No, not possible.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

‘Now’ does not have a time limit. It is always here.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Haha! It does not have a beginning or end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It doesn’t 😊

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

In AE, past is only thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There is only the experience of the present. Time exists only in thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lee,

Had to smile at you laughing at the questions! It is nice to see you having fun with it.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

‘Now’ does not have a time limit. It is always here.

Yes. ‘Now’ doesn’t refer to a time, nor does ‘here’ refer to a place. HereNow points to the current and evident knowing of experience, no matter what it is appearing as.

Let’s throw in a different body exercise!

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Kay

[Freakyboo]

Hello Kay,

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'
When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.
Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

This is the only time there has been awareness of these exactly colours and exact story about the body.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Previous appearances of the body are only thoughts – memories (stories) of the body. They do not exist in AE. It is not known that the body has appeared before, but for thought.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Yes, only a thought-story says this body has appeared before now. There is no evidence for it in AE.

Lee xox

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lee,

The looking has become much easier, hasn't it? The more you look the easier it gets until you realise that looking has started to become automatic.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?


WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Love, Kay

[Freakyboo]

Good morning Kay,

The looking has become much easier, hasn't it? The more you look the easier it gets until you realise that looking has started to become automatic.

Yes, getting the hang of it now :)

What is memory exactly?

Memory is a thought story about the ‘past.’ It is thought that creates the impression of a continuous “me” based on ‘before’ and ‘after,’ which are themselves only thoughts.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

It is made of thought in AE only. Memory has no independent existence as an actual thing, as the past does not exist in AE.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

A ‘general’ thought may be describing something happening now in AE, or apparently ‘thinking’ up a solution to an issue at hand; while a memory is a story that thought is telling about the ‘past,’ that creates the illusion of a continuous “I’ moving through time.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Thought stories about memory actually appear in the ‘now’ only.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It is not known that ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened. Thought tells the memory story and says ‘this happened in the past.’

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The future is also only made of thought.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

The future thought appears as AE of the ‘now.’

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

A ‘general’ thought is usually describing AE or apparently (so it appears) thinking up solutions to issues. A ‘future’ thought is a thought story/image about what might happen further along a thought-projected ‘timeline.’

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It is not known that a future thought refers to something that will happen. A ‘future’ thought is just a mental image/story in AE in the present.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

The only difference between thoughts about past and future is what thought says about them. Thought says about past that ‘this happened in the past’ and about the future, that ‘this might/will happen in the future.’ Both are projected images/stories.

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

The difference is not known in AE.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lee,

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

A ‘general’ thought may be describing something happening now in AE, or apparently ‘thinking’ up a solution to an issue at hand; while a memory is a story that thought is telling about the ‘past,’ that creates the illusion of a continuous “I’ moving through time.

Yep, there is no difference from a general thought, a memory thought or a future thought. They are all simply thought that are appearing now.

Okay..we have explored everything that I like to explore to make sure that there is no place the "I" can seemingly hide. Do you have any questions? Do you have anything that you would like to look at again? Do you have any confusion or unclarity about anything? If so, let's look at them now before we bring this thread to a close.

Be aware that it seems that after seeing through beliefs, the biggest being the concept of the separate self, and the seeing of how simple everything really is, that after awhile a yo-yoing begins. Seemingly identifying as the separate self shows up again and again along with feelings of resistance, doubt, frustration and confusion. This happens on an off, on and off until it becomes a frustration in itself!. Even though there may be a knowing that yo-yoing is also just an appearance, it all seems to be ‘real’! This is quite normal! It isn’t known how long this yo-yoing will go on for, but it will happen until it doesn’t. The key is to keep LOOKING. So there will be a period of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all very healthy.

Kay

[Freakyboo]

Okay..we have explored everything that I like to explore to make sure that there is no place the "I" can seemingly hide. Do you have any questions? Do you have anything that you would like to look at again? Do you have any confusion or unclarity about anything? If so, let's look at them now before we bring this thread to a close.

Questions do come, but when they are looked at, it all comes back to AE and looking - so I don't have any questions at the moment, thank you.

Be aware that it seems that after seeing through beliefs, the biggest being the concept of the separate self, and the seeing of how simple everything really is, that after awhile a yo-yoing begins. Seemingly identifying as the separate self shows up again and again along with feelings of resistance, doubt, frustration and confusion. This happens on an off, on and off until it becomes a frustration in itself!. Even though there may be a knowing that yo-yoing is also just an appearance, it all seems to be ‘real’! This is quite normal! It isn’t known how long this yo-yoing will go on for, but it will happen until it doesn’t. The key is to keep LOOKING. So there will be a period of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all very healthy.

This is definitely the case here. There has been no major 'AHA' moment here where 'no self' was suddenly realized with startling clarity. It's been more like a dismantling process where now, everything that was previously taken for granted is being looked at again through a different lens - a clearer one. But the feeling of separate self is still being experienced, particularly in intense situations, such as meetings at work. The major difference is, the intensity is much easier to let go of once it's over - it's not being ruminated over and obsessed about with intense feelings as before.
Looking in this way is such a fantastic tool and I will be forever grateful to you for gifting it to me so diligently, Kay :)

Love Lee xox