can't find my way home

[Bill]

Hi Subhudra,

You're doing great and I like how descriptive you have been with this!

Yes, I definitely see how all thoughts are stories, which weave their own storyline. The thoughts spin off on their own and then set in motion a whole storyline. I don't know if every thought is past tense for example if I am currently witnessing a bird in flight I may attach a descriptive thought to it but hey I am going off track.

Yes.. one thought leads to another and then we have a whole story... like the story of me, or you.
If you look closely, even a descriptive thought about a bird in flight, or some imagined future event,
is nearly always a bringing up of past events.. thoughts.. situations. What I'm getting at here and its
an important point, is that reality happens right here, right now. Thoughts would be part of that, yes.. but
only in the sense of a descriptor of things. They cannot capture the present moment... only tell about it.
Seeing the difference in thoughts, and what's real is what we're after.

Let see, a story developing from my thoughts, I'm going to revamp a cupboard, but how can I source what I need, I bet because I am inexperienced to revamping it will turn out a mess. It has when I've tried these things before there again if I don't try how will I learn any skill. I just have to the take the plunge and get on with it. Who knows it could surprise me. I am not a practical person really I am more an ideas person that more my forte.

Very good... you can easily see from this that thoughts play a super prominent role and that when unexamined,
are taken to be 'THE truth'. But are they really??

Witnessing the hand moving brought up quite a strange sensation of it being 'a' body. When I looked and thought look at that arm or hand, it was as if I was seeing them as just 'a' arm and hand. I felt quite detached from the them due to just witnessing them.

As you can see from this,Its very hard to find any real specific reason or entity moving the hand.
To take this further... look at any common activity you do... walking, talking, thinking, dressing, eating.
If we just notice what happens, do we 'think' about how to do any of these activities?
Do we think about how to walk? or talk? or eat?
Or do all of these things just happen?

An exercise for you to do today...take your time with it:

As you move around in your normal activities today, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there an entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self/me/I, seeming to live your life?

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts and what's happening as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the positive feedback and for the exercise which I will focus on throughout today. Now for your questions.

(Q1) Very good... you can easily see from this that thoughts play a super prominent role and that when unexamined,
are taken to be 'THE truth'. But are they really??

Regarding your question on thoughts, no thoughts are not truth but like you say left unexamined they are taken as the basis of my reality and Truth, they do a very convincing job and are powerful left unchecked, they just pop up continuously.

(Q2) As you can see from this, Its very hard to find any real specific reason or entity moving the hand.
To take this further... look at any common activity you do... walking, talking, thinking, dressing, eating.
If we just notice what happens, do we 'think' about how to do any of these activities?
Do we think about how to walk? or talk? or eat?
Or do all of these things just happen?

No we don't think about how to do these things, they are instinctive and just happen. They are motivated by thoughts occurring and by the demands of the senses and external factors. For example, I feel hunger, I must eat, (senses); I think its a nice day I will go for a walk (thoughts); talking can be external or from a thought; other activities the same. I cannot identify an entity doing these things it just happens driven by thoughts, senses, or stimuli. As a result, they are just happening. I have often clearly seen how thoughts have a 'mind' of their own and just happen even to the point where I can readily disassociate from the constant mind chatter but I have never made this connection with the body. This exercise has shown me how it is a similar experience.

I look forward to exploring the exercise you have given me today to see is it an entity is living my life or just thoughts directing it.

Can I just come back to watching the hand Bill. I have just read over my previous entry and I feel I recognise what was going on and welcome you insight into this. I recognise that by just watching the hand movement and seeing the hand as just a hand, I experienced conscious awareness. A consciousness witnessing the experience.

Looking forward to hearing from you. With kindest regards - Subhudra

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra... am waiting for your response to the last question from above:

As you move around in your normal activities today, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there an entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self/me/I, seeming to live your life?

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts and what's happening as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

As I'd mentioned in a previous post.. please answer all questions... as they come in. There is a flow to this...

I will comment on your last paragraph.. about feeling like you were consciousness witnessing an experience. This is the crux of what we are doing here. It sounds like you were getting to this simple 'looking' that we've been describing. It can have a feel of something like you've described, but do note that we are not looking to be in some kind of other 'state' with this. More like an everyday feeling , just as you find yourself right now is what we are pointing to. This... you might call it... whatever comes up and is the case, right here and now.....Its nothing special in the sense of being different.
I know that when people first start 'looking' and seeing things fresh, it can feel like a 'consciousness' observing ow witnessing, but if that consciousness is searched for as a separate object, it wont be found in any specific place. In other words.. where is this witness or observer, and can one really be found, other than the the thought of one?
We'll look at this further a bit down the road.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Apologies for not answering the last questions. I wrongly assumed it was an exercise to do throughout the day and something to get back to you after I had done the practice.

An exercise for you to do today...take your time with it:

As you move around in your normal activities today, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there an entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self/me/I, seeming to live your life?

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts and what's happening as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

Having observed activities in my day, normal things, getting up, dealing with stuff throughout the day, it seemed as if it is mainly thoughts that motivate movement. In addition to this sometimes it is as if you act on remote control because you just get on with things without thinking about them.

It seems like thoughts often dictate who I live my life for example, people will be coming over soon, I had better prepare something to eat. Or random thoughts like 'why don't you get in touch Ann you haven't spoken for a while'. Thoughts like these just occur randomly. So yes, there are just thoughts about everything spacing my daily activity. Once the momentum starts it just has a life of its own so to speak. I cant establish an entity living my life. Its just lived. I hope it has some purpose rather than random acts.

Best wishes, Subhudra

[Bill]

Oh, sorry if that was confusing.. I can see where it might have been... you could have waited to post it all at once.
This 'looking for the entity' is something I want you to do from this point on while you're here.
Good job with it.. keep this up and keep looking at what actually happens.
This is the crux of what we are pointing to...
And this is why the instructions and emphasis on 'looking' are needed..
We want to see what's actually there... instead of what we think, or have thought was there.

No one seems to be in control of the body, no do-er can really be found.
No one seems to be controlling and generating the thoughts either, they just pop up.
Think of a decision you've recently made.. just a small one.
How was the choice made between A & B?
Or is a choice even made at all?
Is something doing this (the choosing), that you can point to or locate?
Or does it just happen?

Really take a good look at this.
Go over a few small everyday decisions that pop up..
Let me know what you find..

Let this koan in... you don't have to respond to it unless you want.
Read it and let it in...
-----------------------------------
Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your response.

Think of a decision you've recently made.. just a small one.
How was the choice made between A & B?
Or is a choice even made at all?
Is something doing this (the choosing), that you can point to or locate?
Or does it just happen?

I don't feel I can just answer instantly here. I feel my answers would do more justice to your questions if I observed how I reached decisions and answered from those experiences. This is a totally new experience to me because normally I wouldn't even think about such things when making decisions. I have never stood back and thought how going from A to B is arrived at.

If I answer from choice making today it would be on reflection of the experience not on the seeing. If I answer on reflection, I could say that the choice was made taking in eternal options available to ensure the best outcome. So yes, based on that, a choice is made but it is one with a limited outcome based on your external options. However, nothing is doing that choosing that I could point to or locate. So choice only occurs prompted by thought which is random having a mind of its own, triggering a storyline, setting off a duality between a good outcome in preference to a bad outcome.

Having recognised that thought is just thought with no truth or basis just random I can see how it tries to convince that I am in control where stuff (for want of a better word) is just happening. I will look at the relationship between thought and decision making over the next couple of days and gain a better understanding of what's there.

Kind regards, Subhudra

[Bill]

hello Subhudra,

I don't feel I can just answer instantly here. I feel my answers would do more justice to your questions if I observed how I reached decisions and answered from those experiences. This is a totally new experience to me because normally I wouldn't even think about such things when making decisions. I have never stood back and thought how going from A to B is arrived at.

Its ok to take some time and watch this happen with real examples.
There's a myriad of things throughout the day that happen where you could look.

If I answer from choice making today it would be on reflection of the experience not on the seeing. If I answer on reflection, I could say that the choice was made taking in eternal options available to ensure the best outcome. So yes, based on that, a choice is made but it is one with a limited outcome based on your external options. However, nothing is doing that choosing that I could point to or locate. So choice only occurs prompted by thought which is random having a mind of its own, triggering a storyline, setting off a duality between a good outcome in preference to a bad outcome.

This is a nice intellectual answer.. but it doesn't appear to come from 'looking'. :)
Can you see this?

Having recognized that thought is just thought with no truth or basis just random I can see how it tries to convince that I am in control where stuff (for want of a better word) is just happening. I will look at the relationship between thought and decision making over the next couple of days and gain a better understanding of what's there.

Sounds good. It needn't take a couple days... just look at a few examples and report what actually happens.

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, referring to your questions on choices. Apologies for the format using my mobile. Well no mine just a mobile. Decisions, getting from A to B, the need to think you have to make a decision is generated from thought, which does not think it just presents them. Is there a choice at all? No, these are more thoughts in response to the previous thoughts requesting a decision to be made. The cannot be located they just happen. Short answer due to using a mobile

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra,

Glad you're back. If you like, please give a little update on where you are on things...
What are you seeing clearly, what is still confusing.... what you might be looking for at this point.
I understand that real life can preclude us from responding daily; just do the best you can with it.
I will try to give questions that you can look at inbetween your responses.

Decisions, getting from A to B, the need to think you have to make a decision is generated from thought, which does not think it just presents them. Is there a choice at all? No, these are more thoughts in response to the previous thoughts requesting a decision to be made. The cannot be located they just happen.

The point of looking at this is to see if we can find something that is making the choices....
Is there an 'I' or self or entity of some kind doing this...
If you remember when we looked at thoughts... it was found that even though it seemed certain we were in control, we actually don't have any and the thoughts just come... one after another... and not the ones we might choose. So we really are not in control of them at all.

Stop right now and just look.
Can you find a self anywhere in reality other than the thought of one?
Is there something solid and real you can point to and say ... 'That's it'?
Or is it just a feeling?

To look means to just notice what is here...what's observable.
It's not a furrowed brow type of thing.
Its very simple and we are always doing it whether we notice it or not.
Our senses are always taking it all in.
Our best pointer here is to "Just Look"
When you see this.. you will laugh at how simple it is.

Take another look at the video again.. as a refresher
https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

[Bill]

I want to borrow a good post on this 'Looking' topic from one of my friends (Delma)
This was her response to a person who had trouble getting what this looking is about.
Please read thru it a few times and let it sit for a time...
You needn't give a response... just let it in.
It's excellent as a pointer.

---------------------

Dear Seeker,

It's Never Easy to Write This....

I'm not sure how many ways I can tell you this, and so most times I just have to repeat myself. You don't listen. Thoughts crowd out the very ability to listen to direction. And! You often become frustrated with this direction and walk away from our inquiry thinking that the pointer can't be of much use. You assume that the person giving it is just wrong about what it is you need to hear in order to see this. But the truth is,

You're wrong.

There's a reason why this particular pointer is the most effective I've come across. It's direct. Blunt. It leaves no room for discussion, and my role is to end the discussion entirely.

I don't want a dialogue with you!

Don't be offended by that.


While a dialogue may help you to UNDERSTAND what's being said, that understanding isn't what's going to get this done. I'll tell you what will and I'll give it my best shot, knowing that it's worked for hundreds of people already, maybe thousands. Here it is, so listen up.

Just Look.

That's it. It's the best and most thorough pointer you're going to find if you could just stop long enough to do what's directed.

Now, you have to ask yourself this... how is it that this pointer can be it. The one. Everything. The KEY? Go ahead and ask that question. Test it out. Tear it up. How is that IT?

And when you hit a brick wall, just maybe you'll do what's being asked which is to notice that a speck of dust is more real than the self. A droplet of dew is more real than the self has ever been or can ever be.

How is that true? In what way is that true?

When the answer comes, just stop and take that in. Then scan that brain for all of the teachings which say that this is simple. Childlike. Humble. Think of all the accounts of those who've 'gotten it' and said that they couldn't believe how simple it is. And the look of wonder? It's not because they're suddenly seeing pixie dust or rainbows. It's because they stopped to follow the directive, and then they saw the truth of REALITY AS IT IS.

Now....

Just Look.

Look at something near you.... your hand even.

What is seen?
What is absent?

Look at anything.
Anywhere.
Any time.

What is seen?
What is not?

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,

Looking at what I am currently seeing and what is causing me concern. What I see is that thought is just thought it doesn't have any basis, no evidence, no rational, just a plan of its own for trying to run the show. I see it tries to convince me it must be acted upon and listened to. It tries to convince me that it knows best and it is truth. I see the way in which it fires up emotions to gain strength in creating a drama and wants to drag me into it so I play my part. At the stage where thought and emotion join forces they can do a pretty good job of convincing me that they know what's best for me. This comes in the form of thinking that I need to protect me but there isn't a me to protect. There is just life. But isn't this also just thought telling me this leading me to think "hey you're okay and seeing through this illusion". By doing this I see it is trying to maintain the status quo. What concerns do I still have, frustration knowing I have time restrictions placed on how often I can respond on the forum. Another concern is as I can see now thought is only thought taking me away from truth then all of my belief system, who I think I am, what this whole game of life is all about is built on shaky ground. It has been based on thought and perception and not based on actually seeing what exists. Whilst moving from once considering I was pretty aware to the realisation that I don't know feels like a void and being vulnerable a bit like being at sea in a sinking boat. I haven't yet developed a natural ability to take that step back to see the drama unfolding on a regular basis I still get caught up in the role. Thought convinces me that I still need something to hold onto otherwise I am unprotected.

Stop right now and just look.
Can you find a self anywhere in reality other than the thought of one?
Is there something solid and real you can point to and say ... 'That's it'?
Or is it just a feeling?

I can see a paper trail relating to a person who is called by my name. I can see a body which I know belongs to me. I can see a face when I look at my reflection. I have photographs which reflect the person at various stages throughout my life. However, looking at these they could be anyone, they are just someone. I cannot relate to the person, there is no attachment it is just a reflection of stages of my life as this person. These are all of a body, a physical person. The me I consider to exist is just a drama. No there isn't anything when looking instead of analysing and thinking that I can point to that confirms 'that's is'. It is just feelings and thoughts. But isn't it this analysing and thinking I am stuck in. The looking is difficult because it's always been unused. On seeing I find I am still saying okay I see that but then think okay well what does that mean. I have some way to go before I get past the furrowed brow. Many thanks Bill for your time and direction.

[Bill]

Very nice work Subhudra! I can see this is really coming together for you. I like how you are really taking a look at things.
Please dont worry about the time restrictions.... all is ok as it is... if you can keep 'looking' inbetween responses, that is the key. This is all about you looking. And seeing what it is there for you. You're the only one that can find it for you. Books, teachings, guides.. pffffft. Just look. It looks like you are doing a great job of it as Im seeing the insights you're writing.

If you stop, and look right now... can you find a real self, a real 'I' anywhere in actuality other than a thought?
Note when I ask you to do this... try to be as relaxed and casual as you can... not a furrowed brow type of looking
just a quick casual glance.

I want to give you some more experiments that might help... here's a few.. do them as you can and report back.
This is all very casual.. no tests or exams... no right or wrong...just your observations are what's important.

Look at a university. All it is, is a bunch of buildings, with certain types of people, with certain things being taught there. The label “university” is put on this area, and the feel of it being a university becomes very real, almost like an entity in itself. But there is only a bunch of buildings there. Now take and look at your life, your limbs, head, brain, blood, guts, memories, thoughts, and feelings. All this stuff exists and is very real, but when all this stuff references itself and uses language like “me,” “myself,” and “I,” over time something that seems real appears, a feeling of ownership over all that a feeling of control, a feeling of “I am my name,” “This is me.” But truthfully, there’s nothing more there than the brain, the blood, the guts, the thoughts, the memories, and so on.
Can you see this correlation?

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

When something appears, whatever it is, tension, desire, sound, anything focus on it with laser sharpness. Observe it before any thoughts about it appear. Is there an “I” before the thoughts appear, or does it come with the thoughts?

Its ok to do these several times.. as your time permits. :)

[Bill]

Hello Sudhudra,

Welcome back to the forum! I'm glad you're back, Its been quite a while since you were here.

Could you give me an update on where you are with things?
What have you been doing/studying/reading along these lines since you were here?
Anything break open for you since being here? Have you been looking for a 'me' or 'self' since being here?
If so, what have you found (or not)?

The more detail you can give me, the better.
Do let me know what it is you're wanting to 'do' or 'get' this time.

Bill

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill,
Thank you for kindly picking me up again. Since we last spoke l have read some Eckhart Toille, Practising the power of now. I've also visited other literature emphasising nonduality. I've experienced quite a dry period after the frustration of intensive searching and circles of confusion. There has been a change l feel, l have practiced searching for a self and in such moments realised there is nothing you can the down as the self, there's no where it resides. If l was to use language to describe this the closest would probably be open awareness, a vastness. I have also been able to witness interactions occurring around me as role plays but not real, the false ego dominating people's lives. As for what do l want to get, l don't have any preconceived ideas. As for what do l want know the truth for our existence and the purpose. Thank you.

[Bill]

Hello.. yes.. searching for a self.. looking everywhere for the supposed 'me' that is controlling and running the show... but not finding anything concrete. Only finding thoughts about a me... this was my own experience with this also. One day it just hit me that this 'I' was an assumption.. a notion if you will and nothing 'real' in the sense we normally think of as real. I then saw that most all my life had been living in my head and saw all the stories I had 'written' about me and how they were not real, but something totally in my mind.

The only way this is really seen, is by 'looking' for it. Thinking about it.. reading about it... following some guru's advice about it... rarely if every shows it to be what it is. This is not found in thinking. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with thinking but we can't find out who and what we are with it. So I will emphasize to you again and again to come back to this simple 'looking'. I like what you say about it being a vastness or open awareness.

As for what do l want know the truth for our existence and the purpose.

hehe.. not sure we're going that deep. The truth of what we are is easily seen anytime. Its perfectly obvious once we get out of our own way and just simply 'look' at what is here. As far as purpose... that is wide open and really not something anyone can define for us. Who would be the 'one' saying what it all is? Who would be the 'one' who says... 'this is how it is''?

These are just what came up for me as a first response to your writing.

As a first thing, I'd like you to go over, and re-read our original guiding up to this point. I realize it might take a little time.
It will refresh your memory some and also maybe bring up some more questions you might have.
Or bring up some new ones.

Feel free to say whatever's on your mind around this...
The more you give me.. the better the questions I can ask you.

I look forward to your review and comments. Take your time.. there's no rush.