can't find my way home

[Subhudra]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Need to know what it's all about. What is the purpose of everything. I am not just a body but a spirit who needs to cut through the illusion presented by the material world and live more in the spirit.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:

I am looking forward enlightenment and purpose to my earthly birth. I have no set expectations and am willing to be open on this search for meaning.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

God cannot be defined and our intellect will not get us there. I have read extensively, explored Christianity, Bhakti, meditation, all roads and ended up coming away from organised religion which seems to be claustrophobic and restrictive to the vastness of the spirit.No experience of self enquiry. Read around the subject matter.

[neeeel]

What if what we offer is the opposite of what you are looking for?

Ie, what if what we offer is the realisation that there is no purpose of everything? What if what we offer is the realisation that you arent a body OR a spirit? What if what we offer is the realisation that "living more in the spirit" is just as much an illusion as everything else?

Would you still be interested in what we have to offer?

[Subhudra]

If there is no purpose to anything does this include LU. I have difficulty understanding your dismal of body and spirit where is your evidence for such a claim. I have experienced my soul/eternal life force/whatever inadequate concept you wish to use to try to describe it as separate from my body. How can I say at this stage whether what you offer is opposite to what I am searching for. I have no real knowledge of LU but come with a willingness to listen and respect your kindness in presenting me with this opportunity to explore the beliefs l currently hold. If they hold a modicum of truth they will remain if the picture is not that simple they will reveal truth

[neeeel]

If there is no purpose to anything does this include LU.

You seemed to be looking for the "purpose of everything", the grand meaning or purpose of life, or however you want to put that. We do not offer that here. That is, we are not offering to tell you the grand meaning or purpose of life ( and also, not offering to tell you that there is no purpose either, just to be clear)

I have experienced my soul/eternal life force/whatever inadequate concept you wish to use to try to describe it as separate from my body.

How was this experienced? What I mean is, what did it look like, feel like? How did you experience it as separate from your body?

This belief, that theres a you, that is separate from the body, and from everything else, is the single belief that we challenge in this forum. Are you willing and able to explore and challenge this belief?

How can I say at this stage whether what you offer is opposite to what I am searching for. I have no real knowledge of LU but come with a willingness to listen and respect your kindness in presenting me with this opportunity to explore the beliefs l currently hold. If they hold a modicum of truth they will remain if the picture is not that simple they will reveal truth

Fair enough. I am just checking that what we are offering here is actually what you are looking for. If you get something different to what you expect, then things might not go so well. So I am trying to be straight with you.

[Subhudra]

Thank you l appreciate your concern for my welfare which is reassuring. Can we still go ahead. At any time if I think I need to take time out and re-evaluate l will be honest and say so. Where do we start?

[Subhudra]

The experience of a separateness from the body was not intentionally aiming to achieve anything but something that happened. I had no body or physical awareness of being but seemed to be formless and part of the trees, the landscape and sky. It occurred whilst sitting alone outside. There was no emotion or sense of my existence. This may sound ridiculously grand and exaggerated but I didn't do this it occurred. Once l recognised what had happened there was no feelings or worry or concern it all felt so natural. This experience left me with the awareness that the eternal aspect of me is formless

[Subhudra]

Just to add, there was no viewing at the time, as one views using the eyes or senses because I had merged the whole.

[neeeel]

The experience of a separateness from the body was not intentionally aiming to achieve anything but something that happened. I had no body or physical awareness of being but seemed to be formless and part of the trees, the landscape and sky. It occurred whilst sitting alone outside. There was no emotion or sense of my existence. This may sound ridiculously grand and exaggerated but I didn't do this it occurred. Once l recognised what had happened there was no feelings or worry or concern it all felt so natural. This experience left me with the awareness that the eternal aspect of me is formless

I think I understand what you are getting at. What I am wondering is, if there was no sense of your existence, why do you say it was your soul? Perhaps this is a conclusion you reached after the event?

When you say you had no body, was the body still present? If so, then wouldnt the body also be part of the "trees, landscape sky"?

Just to add, there was no viewing at the time, as one views using the eyes or senses because I had merged the whole.

interesting. How do you use the eyes to view? How does that work? This is a serious question, and I am looking for an answer( in case you think its a rhetorical question or something)

[Subhudra]

Hi Neeeel, l call it soul because from a very early age l have instinctively know l am more than a physical body. I have always felt that internally is the eternal me, spiritual awareness. That the roles assigned to me during this birth are just roles something necessary to fulfill for reasons unbeknown to fulfill my spiritual journey. It was after the event l acknowledged it as confirmation of my soul being boundless and part of everything. I took it as proof of its existence. The body was not still present during this experience. I wasn't present but was some sort of unconfined energy. During it l because aware of what was happening like gently being shown and once that happened l was back being the physical body.

[Subhudra]

I use the eyes to take the in knowledge of my external environment. This is then interpreted with the restrictions of my social and cultural norms and values. This ability to interpret my 'world' is simply that a subjective view which may not contain a modicum of truth. Truth at any given time being subjective and limited. The person I perceive myself to be is but an assortment of roles/bit parts l am allotted to play during this incarnation. My current view of truth or reality may share no relationships to past or future incarnations. I consider these to be a means by which l fulfill some need to prepare me for what the truth actually is. I put my hands up l don't know. My eyes whilst filling a physical function also enabled me to navigate through my environment. If I have gone off on a tangent kindly excuse me.

[neeeel]

How do you use the eyes to view

I use the eyes to take the in knowledge of my external environment.

You realise this isnt an answer right? its just saying, "how do you use your eyes? I use my eyes".

This was your claim

there was no viewing at the time, as one views using the eyes or senses

To me, this implies that usually, there is someone or something using the eyes, and that this wasnt happening during your experience.
How does that work? how does this you use the eyes, is it looking out through the eyes? Is it moving the eyes about ?

The body was not still present during this experience.

I want to be sure I understand here. The body disappeared completely? Ie it wasnt there at all? There were no arms or legs or hands in the field of view?

Or, the body, as in arms, legs, etc, was still there?

[Subhudra]

Yes you understand that correctly during this experience the body wasn't there at all, l because aware of my body when my consciousness shifted back to my physical body. There was no physical body in the field of view. I can't explain it any clearer than what l already have. Bit confused about the eyes and viewing. I misunderstood your question and thought you were asking for an explanation on what l perceives happen generally. What I was trying to convey was normally I would have looked and taken in the view. This wasn't the case during this experience. I was part of the view and was aware I was. However I didn't at anytime consciously think l'm out of my body because my consciousness was free from the body. I apologise if you find this explanation confusing. I am trying to explain something that happened to me with no intention from me.

[Subhudra]

Hi Neeeel, hope all is good haven't heard back in a while. Namaste.

[Bill]

Hello Subhudra,

We can't seem to rouse Neeel. I will go ahead and fill in for him at this point.
What would you like me to call you? Subhudra or ?

Let's start over a bit.
For this to work for you, I need you to be able to put aside all that you've learned and studied about spirituality.
This would also include any past experiences you've had such as the one you described above.
Its not that I don't care about these things... its just that they tend to get in the way of what we do here.

This is about looking deeply into your current experience.... this moment.
I'm going to ask you many questions.. and what I would like from you is to give me your honest response based on what you are seeing right now.. in your current experience.
All questions will be asking about whats happening now.. this is why we don't really care too much about what has taken place. Leave behind or suspend any religious or spiritual practices you are doing.. except maybe simple meditation.

This is in a way very simple... but also difficult.. as I'm going to ask you to disregard what you think many times and just give me what you are noticing and seeing. We are used to telling what we think and believe that is the truth.
If I don't see you are responding.. I may give what we call a zen stick to wake you up and get you on track.
I need you to trust that if I do this.. its for 'you' and to help you see.

If you can agree with this... lets go.

The first question is this.....
What is your response... What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no 'I' in real life, none.... zero... It can't be found if searched for.
There is no entity. Nothing. Just life.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.


also... watch this short 5 min video twice. it describes what we mean by 'looking'
this is possibly the most important term on here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c

[Subhudra]

Hi Bill, Thank you for offering to be my guide. I have read your advice and watched the video twice as requested. I am happy to put aside all l have learnt I the past and all beliefs l currently hold. Please call me Subhudra, are you happy with me calling you Bill? I have a true desire to be honest and open with you and take reassurance that this is a two way process requiring trust that should the Zen stick be used that it is with compassion to assist rather than chastise. One question you say I can continue with simple meditation, how would you define this and what would the focus be?

Now for your questions. The you that you think you are is not real,okay. Intellectually l am aware of this as I am made up of a collection of identities that meet the requirements of the many social obligations during each day. This l that I understand is not real acts on a material stage to fulfill the need to ensure my survival. I do know this collection of I/me is not real. However it is easy to loose track of this awareness once engaged in material existence.
Now for the question there is no I, no entity, zero. Now that is difficult. That I l perceive as totally different from the bit actor me. That l is full of self importance, l decide, l shape my life, l am the axis of my reality. Having just really looked at this l recognised this is the ego in all its finery. If there is zero what will happen to this I. What purpose does life serve or being part of it if not to shape what happens and influence outcomes. This is scary, it's unfamiliar and uncomfortable because it isn't my view of how life is and its unfamiliar territory. A bit like being a new born in a strange land with no knowledge to fall back on. It's makes me ask myself what are you doing, do you really want to go down this road, stick with what you know, it's comfortable, you belong there. But the me who needs to know, who wants the trust, honesty and real purpose, know I can't stay in my comfort zone, l have already wavered off that path and I need to move on with faith that all will be okay.
My sensitivity might get hurt out of not knowing what is required or answering inappropriate but I will go away and lick my wounds and come back having grown from the experience. This l think is how I will address the possibility that the thoughts l hold could be wrong and bring a willingness to explore this possibility. Thank you Bill.