Azirahael's Thread

[Azirahael]

"What brought you here?" Curiosity.

"What are you looking for?" further discoveries beyond the illusion of self.

"What is not happening that you believe, think should be?" In terms of conversation with Sandra: direction.
If that's not what you mean, then i will need more details to answer.

"What do you want?" Further discoveries, beyond the illusion of self.
There is no self. Cool. Got it. What's next?

[Sarah7]

Hi

Curiosity.

About what? What we do? Or .....?

further discoveries beyond the illusion of self.

Like what? What else do you think there is? Are you basing this on anything?

In terms of conversation with Sandra: direction. If that's not what you mean, then i will need more details to answer.

Do you mean direction in that we take you somewhere or in terms of you think you should be going somewhere?
I mean is there something not happening that you think should be? Are you assuming you should be somewhere and you aren’t? That’s why I need detail here.

Further discoveries, beyond the illusion of self. There is no self. Cool. Got it. What's next?

Like what? Again have you an idea here? E.g. have you read something that states this, this and this will happen..... and it’s not.
Are you very clear there is no self? No doubt?
Has seeking ceased?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Azirahael]

"About what? What we do? Or .....?" No. Just simple curiosity.

"Like what? What else do you think there is? Are you basing this on anything?" Like what? Don't know. Asking based on other people's experiences. Many people think there are further things to learn, further steps. If there are not, then... Bye!

"Do you mean direction in that we take you somewhere or in terms of you think you should be going somewhere?"
Direction to whatever is next. If there is nothing beyond 'the self is an illusion' then we are done.
I'm assuming there is, because i said that in the first post, and Sandra kept talking.

"I mean is there something not happening that you think should be? Are you assuming you should be somewhere and you aren’t? That’s why I need detail here." see above.

"Like what? Again have you an idea here? E.g. have you read something that states this, this and this will happen..... and it’s not." See above.

"Are you very clear there is no self? No doubt?" Yes. No.

"Has seeking ceased?" No.

[Sarah7]

Don't know. Asking based on other people's experiences. Many people think there are further things to learn, further steps.

Ok so here we deal with direct experience. Can you experience something you dont experience?
And if you read about what else there is that doesn’t appear to be happening to you, how does that make you feel? What reactions do you notice? What is directly experienced?

Are you very clear there is no self? No doubt?

Yes. No.

Can you explain this please?

Has seeking ceased?

No.

So I ask again. What do you want that isn’t happening to happen? What isn’t here that you think should be? What do you want? What is wrong with right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Azirahael]

"Ok so here we deal with direct experience. Can you experience something you dont experience? "
I was talking about other people.
All their experiences did, was prompt me to look.

"And if you read about what else there is that doesn’t appear to be happening to you, how does that make you feel?" curiosity? What are they doing that i am not? If it's a positive experience, can i have it too?

"Are you very clear there is no self?" [Yes]
"No doubt?" [No]

"What do you want that isn’t happening to happen? What isn’t here that you think should be? What do you want? What is wrong with right now?"

Flawed question. There is nothing that i know that should or should not happen.
I am simply asking if there is anything more.


Look and see the absence of self. Cool. Done.
Now what?

If this is the entirety of the experience, we're done.
If there are further lessons to learn, tell me, and we'll make a start.

[Sarah7]

What are they doing that i am not? If it's a positive experience, can i have it too?

Precisely why I’m asking what is wrong with right now. And who or what is wanting either positive or negative experiences? Who or what wants other than what is?

No doubt? No

Is this a problem?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Azirahael]

Precisely why I’m asking what is wrong with right now.

Nothing.
Why must something be wrong for me to ask if there's anything else?
And you didn't answer the question. IS there anything else?

And who or what is wanting either positive or negative experiences?[/quote" whatever you want to call the assemblage of drives and motivations that other people refer to as 'me.'

Is this a problem?

No.

[Sarah7]

IS there anything else?

What is experienced? This ? Or something else?

[Azirahael]

Answer the question in a straightforward way, relevant to this website, and non-duality, please.

Are there more steps to learn, in a non-dual context, here at this website, beyond the basic step of 'the self is an illusion.' ?

And no, i don't mean 'we all learn something from each other.'
Because that's not what i mean, and i think you know that.

[Azirahael]

"Actually I did answer it." You responded. You didn't answer.

I'm asking you if seeing through the illusion of self is the first step or the last.
IF it's the last step, i'm done, g'bye.

If there are more steps, i'm asking you what they are.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Az,

My name is Kay and it seems that you are getting frustrated because you aren't getting a straight answer to your question.

I'm asking you if seeing through the illusion of self is the first step or the last.

Seeing through the illusion is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through, however, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing.

When Sarah asked you the following questions, your answers pointed to there being some doubt and that is normal.

Are you very clear there is no self? No doubt?

Yes. No.

Has seeking ceased?
No.

The point of this exploration is to make sure that you have actually seen through the illusory self and that it is not just an intellectual knowing. There is a big difference and the difference is in how you feel. If seeking is still happening, then perhaps it would be good for you to go through the entire exploration to see if illusory "I" isn't still 'hiding', so to speak in places where you haven't thought to look, ie body, time, thoughts. When seeing through the illusory self it is also important to see that there is no doer, thinker, feeler, controller, decider or chooser.

My form of guiding is to deconstruct the "I", so that it is seen that there is no separate "I" anywhere, but you do actually have to LOOK at what is being pointed at, so that you actually get to see for yourself. The other thing is that you would have to be here with an open mind and to put aside everything you think you know, as everything you think you know will only hinder your looking.

So, if you wish to continue then let me know. If you think you already know then we can't assist you here.

With love, Kay

[Azirahael]

Cool. Thanks for the as-close-as-we've-had-so-far direct answer.
So i think we are done.


Critique: i will point out that the 'yes and no' thing is not only lacking in clarity, but annoying.

Example: Q: I'm asking you if seeing through the illusion of self is the first step or the last.
A: Seeing through the illusion is just a beginning and not an ending.

This suggests that there is more to come.
But: "If you think you already know then we can't assist you here." This suggests that there's not.

I realise that the english language is lacking in words for metaphysical details, but that's reason to be more clear with the language, not less.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Az,

You either want to confirm that you have seen or you don't, but I am not interested in playing word games with you. If you cannot understand the simple words that seeing through the illusory self is a beginning and not an ending, with the rest that I wrote in my last post; and if you only think you have seen but are not prepared to LOOK to see if you actually have, then it is pretty obvious that we can't assist you. We are all volunteers and volunteer out time freely, however, we are not here to play games, so please stop wasting our time. There are many waiting at the gate for a guide who are willing to look. You either want to be guided or you don't. As you had said several times that you don't need us....I will take that as your final answer.

Best wishes with your continuing seeking.

With love, Kay

[Azirahael]

but I am not interested in playing word games with you.

Then why did you?

If you cannot understand the simple words that seeing through the illusory self is a beginning and not an ending,

And today is the first day of the rest of my life.

But in a more meaningful context, it is the last day of the week.
And the existence of more days to come, does not change that.

I was asking in regard to here, and this specific process.
If seeing through the illusion of self is the goal of this specific site, than it's the end.
And if you have achieved that, then other than some tidy up, you're done here, even if your journey continues.

If it's the first step on a program (like the 10 fetters for example) then it is not.
And i was asking in that context.

and if you only think you have seen but are not prepared to LOOK to see if you actually have

Again, imputing motives. There is only what has happened, and what has not.
You're not seeing what's there, you're seeing what you think is there.

It also interests me that your tone seems annoyed, or even slightly angry.
Which suggests that there is more work to be done on your end.

We are all volunteers and volunteer out time freely, however, we are not here to play games, so please stop wasting our time.

See, that's what i mean. You seem to be imputing time wasting and game playing motives to me.
Isn't it better to see what IS rather than what we think is?

As you had said several times that you don't need us

Nope. Never said that.
Scroll up and look. :)

Seems like you might be reading into what i said, some things that are not actually present.
You'll note that i phrased almost all my comments along those lines as 'if this, then that follows.'
The last thing i said was "So i think we are done."
All of which are based on 'if this is the goal, then...'

So again, IF the goal is to see through the illusion of self, then we are done.
And i did not in fact need to be here.
But because the concepts are so fuzzy, it's hard to tell.

I'm gonna assume that this is the end, on account of the unclear messages, and the general confusion.
See ya!

[forgetmenot]

Hello Az....it is rather easy to see that you have not seen through the separate self. If you are unclear of what this site is about then you can always spend some time perusing the website and find out for yourself. Just start reading from here:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Enjoy your seeking.

With love, Kay