Azirahael's Thread

[Azirahael]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is not found in experience.
That it is an illusion of the sense.

What are you looking for at LU?
Answers to questions i didn't know i had.
Guidance? .

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Unsure.
I'm trying to approach without preconceptions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Extensive. Though i come from a sceptical background.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[ilazmit]

Azirahael, My name is Sandra. Would you like me to be your guide?

[Azirahael]

Is there any reason why i would not?

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,
Great, it is meant to be that I am to guide you. Can you tell me what your expectations might be about seeing through the concept of self?
Sandra

[Azirahael]

Ok. I guess it was a turn of phrase, rather than an actual question?

Seeing through the concept of self?

I already did that. What i'm wondering is: what next?
Like, once you have looked inside and realise there is no discrete self, and that we are essentially identifying with sensation and/or emotion, how does one get rid of this very persistent sense of self?

Like, once you've looked inside and not found the 'self' how do we get rid of this 'self' that seems to appear when we open our eyes?
And should we?

And if we should, what next?

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

You raise some very interesting questions. but how can you get rid of something that doesn't exist? This may sound glib, but it really is like telling a child Santa does not exist. Azirahael, it sounds like you have done some looking but there is still some lingering concept of self. An exercise that Is useful to start off the dissipation of " self" would be to look at an object and be aware if there is any point where seeing starts or ends, or does sight just happen.
You can try this with the other senses; is there any point where smelling starts or do smells just happen, and so on.
Is there an inside to look for a discrete self? Relax into this exercise and let me know what comes up.
Sandra

[Azirahael]

No, sensations just happen.
sight for example is just input.
It neither starts nor stop, it's just there.
and we open ourselves to it, or don't

and yes, there is a conceptual 'inside' to look in.
Even if it's just a way of describing our own mind.

And while the self may not exist, that does not stop the illusion of self from existing.

[ilazmit]

Hi Azirahael,

sight for example is just input. It neither starts nor stop, it's just there.
and we open ourselves to it, or don't

Is there a self that opens itself to input? Can you describe this illusion of self , or is it just thought? If you could describe it , it would be useful , because then we would be on the same page, or speaking the same language so to speak.
Earlier you wrote,

Like, once you've looked inside and not found the 'self' how do we get rid of this 'self' that seems to appear when we open our eyes?

Can you tell me what it is and why you want to get rid of something?
There's a video that you may find interesting, Let me know what you think': https://vimeo.com/90101368
Sandra

[Azirahael]

THe hardest part about all this stuff is the language.
As we are dealing with nuanced concepts that don't have clear labels, using other words that don't have clear meanings.

"Is there a self that opens itself to input?" Not inside my head, no. There is only me.

"Can you describe this illusion of self , or is it just thought?" I open my eyes. Sensation flood in. i assume therefore that 'I' exist.
This is incorrect. Sensation happens. The brain processes it. The illusion that this therefore creates the 'i'. But upon internal examination, there is no one 'viewing' the input, or the thoughts.
They are simply there.

"Can you tell me what it is and why you want to get rid of something?"
Because it's a persistent illusion, and i prefer to see the world as it is, as much as possible.And i asked you 'should i?'
If it's a good idea, lets do it. if not... what else are we going to do?

[ilazmit]

Hi Azirahael,

"Can you tell me what it is and why you want to get rid of something?"
Because it's a persistent illusion, and i prefer to see the world as it is, as much as possible.And i asked you 'should i?'
If it's a good idea, lets do it. if not... what else are we going to do?

What I understand from what you have written , and please correct me if I misunderstood, you would rather be actually experiencing life rather than thinking, or fantasizing about it? Or perhaps you could further clarify the statement persistent illusion.
Sandra

[Azirahael]

Not really.

More stripping away the illusions, as much as possible.

Also working towards quieting the 'noise' in my head.

[ilazmit]

Azirahael,
Let's look at stripping the illusion. When you say quieting the noise in your head, I am assuming that you meant thoughts, quietening the thoughts in your head? There's an article I would love it if you took a look at. http://markedeternal.blogspot.ca/2012/05/labels.html. You could do the exercise in it if you like. It's basically about reclaiming your innocence. It's a paradigm shift. A different perspective. Let me know what comes up.
Sandra

[Azirahael]

What comes up? Nothing new.

Probably past that point

I am well aware that the label is separate from the content.
The tree is not my internal model of a tree. Thoughts about tree, are not themselves trees.

And the power of labels.
For example, in the medical profession here, the designation for non-straight males is MSM or Men who have Sex with Men.
Because 'Gay' carries connotations and assumptions, which may not fit.
So to strip back the label, we simply describe what people DO rather than ascribing motivations, or intent to them.

So yes, but this is old news. That paradigm shifted long ago.

And yes, i am talking about quieting thoughts.
The internal and unnecessary narrator.

I don't even have to close my eyes to see that sensations are simply happening.
There is no 'i' to witness them, they simply happen, and the mind seems to ascribe 'i' to the sensations by default.

[Azirahael]

I am not my experiences.

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,
Glad to see that you can see beyond labels. Is the self just a label? A belief much like the belief in Santa.

I am not my experiences.

,but are you experience? It is possible to have an intellectual understanding of all this. Have you ever looked to see through the illusion of self? I would like to introduce a pointer called "Looking", you may be already familiar with this. It would Involve lying down some where , preferably in nature. Just notice the clouds floating by and life just living. Then notice thoughts float by like the clouds in the sky. The pointer for " looking" would be the space between the thoughts, the blue sky. Quite possibly the way an infant looks at the world before conditioning. Look to see if there is a self, and if so where? Let me know what comes up. It is important that you try this in nature.
Have some fun with this if you like.
Sandra