Azirahael's Thread

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

I`m busy in Montreal. I`ll get back to you tomorrow. Have a great weekend.

Sandra

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,
Could you try this exercise? Do this exercise first and then answer the question below.
Place both hands on a table in front of you. In a moment one will get raised in the air and the other will stay where it is. The key thing is to look for the exact moment of choice, the choice-point, where one hand is chosen instead of the other.



Was there any desire and intent involved in this exercise?

Sandra

[Azirahael]

There is no random.

I can only choose to lift one or the other.
I can play games in my head to attempt to randomise it, but i can see 'myself' doing it.
So it is not random.

There is a very strong identification with 'choice' here.

I am aware of the fact that there's no inner 'I' to be choosing, but it really does feel like there is, in this instant.

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,
I wouldn't say that it's random either, but as you are well aware of it isn't thought that is turning the hand. So the big question is if it isn't the "self" turning the hand, what is it? To Look at what it may be would involve relinquishing the concept of "control". If you like , try it. Try relinquishing control for about 4 hours and let me know if anything is really different. Just go about your day and look to see if thoughts are really necessary for anything.

Another interesting exercise would be to be aware of a cup from just "looking" at it and not thinking about it. Look at the cup and then say "my cup" and then look at your hand and say "my hand". Then look at the cup and say " not my cup" and then look at your hand say " not my hand" . From just being aware of the the two phrases, is there a difference in the way you experience your hand? Let me know how this goes.
SAndra

[Azirahael]

ugh. forgot. try and get to you tomorrow.

[Azirahael]

Hello Azirahael,
I wouldn't say that it's random either, but as you are well aware of it isn't thought that is turning the hand. So the big question is if it isn't the "self" turning the hand, what is it? To Look at what it may be would involve relinquishing the concept of "control". If you like , try it. Try relinquishing control for about 4 hours and let me know if anything is really different. Just go about your day and look to see if thoughts are really necessary for anything.

Another interesting exercise would be to be aware of a cup from just "looking" at it and not thinking about it. Look at the cup and then say "my cup" and then look at your hand and say "my hand". Then look at the cup and say " not my cup" and then look at your hand say " not my hand" . From just being aware of the the two phrases, is there a difference in the way you experience your hand? Let me know how this goes.
SAndra

I don't disagree.
The problem is, that i know things are happening due to unconscious processes, and that i am claiming them as decisions, rather than actually making conscious decisions and then executing them.

The problem is: it does not seem that way in practice.
I need some way of sensing it.

[ilazmit]

Azirahael,

Crazy busy with work. I'll get back to you later.
Sandra

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

The problem is, that i know things are happening due to unconscious processes, and that i am claiming them as decisions, rather than actually making conscious decisions and then executing them.

Where is this I that knows that things are happening due to unconscious processes? Are "unconscious processes" camouflage for thoughts about a thinker of thoughts? Are you a walking talking container labeled unconscious processes? If you really want to strip away illusion look at what you accept as what Northrop Frye would label as your "Myth of concern". In other words look at your thoughts and how do they stand up to what is actually happening now in actual experience.
Sandra

[Azirahael]

There is no i.

Camoflage: no.
Container: Yes.

As t the last bit, i have no idea what you mean.

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

Where do you feel this container? I do not mean think you feel the container, where do you actually feel It? In other words, How do you actually sense that you are separate from life?
Sandra

[Azirahael]

The container is my skin.

Everything on the inside is 'me' and everything outside is 'other.'

Not sure what you are driving at here.

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

The container is my skin.
Everything on the inside is 'me' and everything outside is 'other.''

If you had to step outside naked into -40 Celsius weather how much would everything on the outside be other and everything on the inside be you? From looking from your direct experience of life, from your five senses, and not from thought and intellect, is there a you that is separate from experience?
Sandra

[Azirahael]

How does temperature, or intensity of sensation change anything?
I've worked in t-shirts and shorts in deepfreezes nearly that cold.
I find it enjoyable.

But assuming you mean 'horribly cold'... same issue.

"is there a you that is separate from experience?" no.

Really, i've lost the thread here.
I currently have no idea what the point of this is, or where you are trying to drive to.

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

So let's connnect the dot's. It's established that there is no control over thoughts. From thoughts objects are labeled but they are just labels. Seemingly there is no doer, but from what I (my thoughts) assume, based on your statement "Unconscious Processes", it sounds as though you are describing an intact sense of self. This intrigue is about seeing from the heart, which would be another pointer because to someone with a very strong scientific background this may or may not sound ludicrous. What I am driving at is whether or not you feel that you perceive yourself as separate from experience.
Perhaps you could elaborate on your label "Unconscious processes"?

Sandra

[Azirahael]

Yes.

Whether the self is real or not, it does indeed feel like there is one.
Sure, i can look, and not find it inside.
But that just means that the self is simply the assemblage.

The subconscious drives that manifest in consciousness, the thoughts that appear, the actions taken.
That is the self.

The subconscious processes are simply that: the goings on below the level of awareness.
Somewhere there is some pert of you that chose your favourite colour, or set you up to prefer chocolate to strawberry.
Sure, it's not conscious, and not under conscious control, but it is 'us' nonetheless.

To quote Sam Harris: “You are not controlling the storm, and you are not lost in it. You are the storm.”
I am the sum total of these processes.
I am not buffeted by the storm of thoughts and experiences, nor do i control them.
The only 'I' is the storm of sensations and reactions to it.

Separate from experience? Don't know what you are asking.
Do you mean 'is there anything to the sense of self, other than sensory input?'
or do you mean 'is the you that is you separate from the rest of the world which you experience?'
Or something else?