Where's that gate?

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:42 am

Is this "sense of 'I'" a separate something that sees and is aware? If so, please tell me where it's located, not as an idea/thought or body sensation but as an actual thing.
I cannot locate "I" other than as a passing sense of contracted focus that is there sometimes, but not always. It is not a thing. It isn't located anywhere...and really, there is more a sense of focus and attention - on whatever happens to be the form of consciousness in the moment. But I cannot locate an "I" separate from whatever form of consciousness is present. For example, there is no "I" having a body, just body.

That said, there is a habitual thought pattern of "I." I do this, I do that...but it is experienced as thought pattern, just another variation of consciousness. It is a reference point, but not a thing that can be located apart from what it refers to.

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Artst
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:20 pm

HI, Jonathan,
other than as a passing sense of contracted focus
What exactly does this consist of? Is it a body sensation? A thought? Both?
I cannot locate an "I" separate from whatever form of consciousness is present.
Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?
..there is a habitual thought pattern of "I.
Yes!

It's so nice to be guiding you again, Jonathan!

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:10 pm

HI, Jonathan,
other than as a passing sense of contracted focus
What exactly does this consist of? Is it a body sensation? A thought? Both?
I've been investigating this a lot of late - trying to break down what exactly is "I-ness." What I have observed is that there are several components that combine into "I-ness." It is like a knot - awareness knots, contracts, and the thought "I" emerges. So there is the subtle knot, like awareness folds in on itself, then there is the thought, then there is a bodily sensation of slight tension that arises in response.
I cannot locate an "I" separate from whatever form of consciousness is present.
Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?
As a tree, most definitely! A tree is life "treeing" ;-)
..there is a habitual thought pattern of "I.
Yes!

It's so nice to be guiding you again, Jonathan!

Love,

Robyn
Thanks, I appreciate working with you again!

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Artst
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:00 am

Hi, Jonathan,

Great.
awareness knots, contracts,
I don't understand what you mean by this. Does awareness knot and contract? Are you describing a physical sensation or something in the imagination or...?
Is there a separate part called "awareness?" Or is there just experience?
I look forward to your reply.

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:00 pm

awareness knots, contracts,
I don't understand what you mean by this. Does awareness knot and contract? Are you describing a physical sensation or something in the imagination or...?
Both/neither? ;-) It is a metaphor, really, as awareness has no substance to "knot." There is an accompanying physical sensation, but I think it is more symptomatic than anything else - a tension, especially in the forehead and chest, but also muscular throughout the body. A subtle "holding."

But upon examination, there is no knot - just a thought of "I" that arises and passes, and a location of focus. When I look at my water bottle (for instance), there is no I that is separate from the water bottle, except when the thought I arises...and then the focus is on the thought I.

But the only "I" that can be located is the thought itself. There is no "I" apart from that thought. There is awareness/experience, but anything (or anyone) separate from that.
Is there a separate part called "awareness?" Or is there just experience?
Just experience, but awareness is the luminous quality of experience.

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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:21 am

Dear Jonathan,

Well done.
just a thought of "I" that arises and passes, and a location of focus
except when the thought I arises...and then the focus is on the thought I.
Will you please tell me what "location of focus" is? Is there a separate something doing the focusing? (Just so I'm clear.)
But the only "I" that can be located is the thought itself. There is no "I" apart from that thought.
Good!
There is awareness/experience, but anything (or anyone) separate from that.
Nice.

Wow, Jonathan. "'You've come a long way, Baby!" (I hope you remember that ad. ;-) )

Love,
Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:25 am

just a thought of "I" that arises and passes, and a location of focus
except when the thought I arises...and then the focus is on the thought I.
Will you please tell me what "location of focus" is? Is there a separate something doing the focusing? (Just so I'm clear.)
Just whatever is being experiencing - whatever IS. No separate something, just the experience, and thus in a sense "I" am whatever happens to be experienced. That experience could be whatever...thoughts, emotions, sensations, but there is nothing but the experience itself, and it is always changing.

Now there is often a thought-complex that sees itself as I, that is centered around an I-thought; e.g. "I am sad right now" or "I am typing this message," but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It, too, is experience that is subject to change.
Wow, Jonathan. "'You've come a long way, Baby!" (I hope you remember that ad. ;-) )
Haha, I know the ad but I think it was before my time (I think it was 50s-60s? I was born in the 70s).

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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:12 am

Jonathan,

You seem very clear. There are some last questions that I will send you that are designed for you to fully explore this "no I" business.

Do you have any questions or concerns before I send them to you?

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:54 am

Jonathan,

You seem very clear. There are some last questions that I will send you that are designed for you to fully explore this "no I" business.

Do you have any questions or concerns before I send them to you?

Love,

Robyn
No questions or concerns...I look forward to the questions...let's fully explore this "no I business!" ;)

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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:27 am

Hi, Jonathan,

Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Enjoy!

Sending love!

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:09 pm

Ooh, those are some juicy questions - hitting me hard, eh? ;-)

Anyhow, sorry for the delayed response - it has been a busy weekend. I should be able to reply today.

Jonathan

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:19 pm

OK, I couldn't resist the questions so dove right in...
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?
Only apparently so, but not in actuality (as far as I can tell! ;-)). There is no separate entity that I can perceive or locate, and there never has been one. In truth, it is kind of funny seeing this – a big cosmic joke, where you realize the punch line is: you don't exist! Or rather, what you thought you were actually isn't the case.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
As far as I can tell, it is entirely conceptual; a complex of thoughts, emotions, habitual psychological processes that we identity with as who we are, perhaps starting with a child first saying “I.” Over time more and more experiences, habits, thoughts and emotions “stick” to that thought, and it becomes our self-identity. But it is like a statue with feet of clay: it is all based upon a thought, which isn't real: “I.”

In terms of my own experience, there is just that...experience, but I habitually attach onto certain aspects of the “ongoing flow” of experience as “me,” as “I” - and it is anchored by the I-thought itself.

As I sit here writing this, there is ongoing experience in whatever form: physical/sensory, emotional, mental, imaginary, etc. It is all one “field,” yet taking different forms. There is no separate thing or entity that stands apart from experience, just habitual associations with certain aspects of the “field” as being “I,” namely the I-thought itself, as well as other subtle psychological patterns and emotional conditions. But it seems to be just that: habit and association/identification, not actuality.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
When I see this, it is...freeing. It is not that the habitual patterns no longer arise, it is that they don't “stick” as much...or rather, “I” don't get caught up in them as much as I did before. I don't get as easily swirled up in the whirlwind of habitual reaction and identification.

Don't get me wrong: there is still contraction, still moments or periods of time in which “I” am lost (as “I”!). But it is less concrete, more flowing. One analogy that makes sense to me is a flowing river; I will get stuck on a rock for moment, but inevitably I will come loose again and just flow.

Furthermore, the more I flow with and as experience, the more time seems to dilate and open up, and the more vivid things seem to be, almost as if illuminated from within. It is subtle but perceptible: everything is more clear, tastes are more powerful, etc.

There is also this accompanying sense of humor and heart-warmth that seems to be the natural response to "being the flow." A kind of bubbling up from within that is not reliant upon external stimulus.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Well, I don't quite see it as “last bit” or that I have been “pushed over.” It just feels like an ongoing deepening over years...first in glimpses, but with a kind of quickening over the last few months. I think the dissolution of my marriage really helped in that I was forced to relinquish many of my old identifications. I was pretty stuck, pretty locked into myself, and the end of my mariage broke that open. This feels like it is ongoing, and not at all finished or complete - but in a way, just getting started.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Haha, I'll try. It all feels spontaneous – like decisions are just made without any intention. Actually, the only decision or intention that could be made is to struggle against the flow, to “grab onto the rocks,” so to speak. It seems paradoxical: the more I surrender, and the less I hold onto some semblance of control and intention, the more free I feel.

Life is happening. But it is not quite some kind of passive thing, like it is “happening to me”...that feels to be the difference; it is happening, but not to me. Rather, I am the happening itself, I am the flow of experience. I am a location within the vast matrix of what is unfolding, sort of like the myth of Indra's Net of Jewels – yet much more dynamic and flowing.
6) Anything to add?
A couple things. There seems to be less separation between “inner” and “outer.” It all feels like one field of experience. This is still very much deepening….like “I” am breathing out into the world, breathing it in, and in the process the “I” is softening and loosening, and there is only the breathing; the universe itself inhaling and exhaling, the flow of experience, inner and outer as a kind of ellipsis that are not separate, but two aspects of one holistic reality.

In other words, it kind of feel like reality has become...inverted? It is no longer "Me inside experiencing life out there," but simply one reality, a field of ever-changing experience.

The other thing is that while I've always been somewhat of a “neo-Buddhist” in terms of questioning every and all beliefs, I have surrendered more and more to uncertainty, not knowing, to the dissolution of any and all beliefs and certainties about life, the future (and past), as well as all ideas about myself. Again, the habitual “knowings” and beliefs are still there, they still arise, but it is almost like they are optional. Like I'm browsing through Netflix offerings...what do I want to watch? They are just possible ways of looking at life; perspectives on the flow of experience from within the flow of experience.

One more thing: Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me!

Regards,
Jonathan

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Artst
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:27 am

Jonathan,

It is clear to me that you have indeed Gated.

I'm going to submit your answers to a group of fellow guides to see if I may have missed anything that I should cover with you before inviting you to join a couple of post-Gating groups.

I'll get back to you soon (and you may get the invitations before you hear from me again).

It has been a pleasure, Jonathan, and I'm thrilled that you are having such a lovely experience of "I-lessness."

Sending much love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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jbardo
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby jbardo » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:37 am

Jonathan,

It is clear to me that you have indeed Gated.

I'm going to submit your answers to a group of fellow guides to see if I may have missed anything that I should cover with you before inviting you to join a couple of post-Gating groups.

I'll get back to you soon (and you may get the invitations before you hear from me again).

It has been a pleasure, Jonathan, and I'm thrilled that you are having such a lovely experience of "I-lessness."

Sending much love,

Robyn
OK, thank you so much, Robyn - you have been a great help in my process. I only feel like this is the beginning...or a beginning!

Best regards,
Jonathan

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Artst
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Re: Where's that gate?

Postby Artst » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:52 am

My pleasure entirely, Jonathan!

I get lot out of it for myself, as well.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life


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