Seeking

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Sorry for delay but I posted a reply immediately but it looks like it didn't come through. I wasn't clear on what you were saying and was waiting on that before saying more! Hense delay.

Anyway I just wanted clarity - you said 'which is an emotional experience' were you were referring to ''you/me'' or going through the gateless gate as an emotional experience?

Have a look directly for the Louise in thought. How many 'yous' is it possible to find?
There are lots of versions of Louise in thought. There is the sound of the silent voice that mostly constantly talks, provides thoughts. There are several memories, images of this person in various situations. There is a sense of will, but often that splits in to different voices one part wanting one thing, another questioning it. There is something behind all of these things that holds it all, and that then seems like 'me', but as you've invited me to look before, each time I experience that experiencer, I can widen out and something else is holding all that. Very occasionally and for very short periods that something seems to be very expansive and include everything - sound, sight, sensation, so not particularly attached to me or anything outside of me. Quite rare though.

What is it that passes through the gateless gate?
Good question, I have absolutely no idea!

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

I have no idea what I meant by saying it was an emotional experience! I suspect I was trying to ask if there was an emotional reaction to the idea of a 'you' not being able to pass the gate. None of the Louises in thought can pass the gate. Is that a worrying 'thought'?

What knows about the thoughts? What knows about sensation, sounds, colours, smells and tastes? What knows about experience happening?

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

None of the Louises in thought can pass the gate. Is that a worrying 'thought'?

That's not a worrying thought, it sounds like quite a relief, not to be carrying all those Louises around! But I'm not sure at all what does pass through the gate. I can't imagine it.

What knows about the thoughts? What knows about sensation, sounds, colours, smells and tastes? What knows about experience happening?

There is knowing or awareness of everything that arises. Thoughts know about or comment on sensations, colours etc. Then there is awareness of thoughts. I don't know what it is that knows all this. It's a mystery right now Nina! Love, Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

It seems we could be approaching the end of this conversation. Just some more clarity maybe?

Is there an "experiencer" or just experience?

Spend some time with this.

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Ok thanks Nina, will do and will post back in a few days. xx

[Artyzen]

Is there an "experiencer" or just experience?

Hi Nina

I've been staying with the focus for the last week, while going about my day and also sometimes in meditation.I'm aware of waiting for a penny to drop and I don't feel that's happened, but maybe that's conceptual and I have some idea of what 'going through the gate' might be like (expectation). I understand what you say that Louise can't go through the gate.....if there is no experiencer then of course that can't happen as there is no-one to go through. So what does happen? What is going through the gate/gateless gate even.

In actual experience I've been bringing attention to whatever is arising in any moment when I think of it....noticing what is happening and looking for an experiencer in experience. To experience life is clear, very clear, stuff happens, there are sounds, sensations, sights and thoughts constantly arising and passing. Thoughts create a sort of continuum and sense of 'me' by linking what happens in experience. Emotions are felt as sensations in the body with accompanying thoughts. I notice in particular habits of wanting or grasping, pulling towards certain things or of needing things to be tidy. All habits I associate with 'Louise' but they can also be seen just as something that happens. So the key question, is there an experiencer?

All I can find as the experiencer is an idea of one, in thought. In actual experience, experience is clearly seen and felt. It seems like there is someone experiencing this, but I can't actual see, locate or identify this....or rather it can't be found as a separate identity. What I find can however be defined or identified in tangible experience. I don't know whether I'm making sense - if I look for an experiencer I find experience. Something is looking and is finding stuff happening. The experiencer is totally bound up in experience, can be seen as another experience rather than as a separate entity.

Sorry bit long winded to your wonderfully pithy question....Does that make sense?

Love

Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise. Great to hear from you.

I've been staying with the focus for the last week, while going about my day and also sometimes in meditation.I'm aware of waiting for a penny to drop and I don't feel that's happened, but maybe that's conceptual and I have some idea of what 'going through the gate' might be like (expectation). I understand what you say that Louise can't go through the gate.....if there is no experiencer then of course that can't happen as there is no-one to go through. So what does happen? What is going through the gate/gateless gate even.

That is true. An "experiencer" can't go through the gate. But there is experience? is that true?

In actual experience I've been bringing attention to whatever is arising in any moment when I think of it....noticing what is happening and looking for an experiencer in experience. To experience life is clear, very clear, stuff happens, there are sounds, sensations, sights and thoughts constantly arising and passing. Thoughts create a sort of continuum and sense of 'me' by linking what happens in experience. Emotions are felt as sensations in the body with accompanying thoughts. I notice in particular habits of wanting or grasping, pulling towards certain things or of needing things to be tidy. All habits I associate with 'Louise' but they can also be seen just as something that happens. So the key question, is there an experiencer?

Experience is very clear. Is an experiencer required?

All I can find as the experiencer is an idea of one, in thought. In actual experience, experience is clearly seen and felt. It seems like there is someone experiencing this, but I can't actual see, locate or identify this....or rather it can't be found as a separate identity. What I find can however be defined or identified in tangible experience. I don't know whether I'm making sense - if I look for an experiencer I find experience. Something is looking and is finding stuff happening. The experiencer is totally bound up in experience, can be seen as another experience rather than as a separate entity.

There is indeed LOOKING. There is also experience
But is there a separate self looking?
or is Looking just happening?

Standing looking at the sky, is there any choice about where the eyes move?
If there is a sound, is there any choice but to notice it?

Lots of love

Nina
xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Thank you for your huge patience...I feel I'm on the edge but not dropping in to seeing this, though I really know about it. I imagined it would take a few weeks and I realise I first contacted you in April so that seems to be a long time - is it? So I really appreciate your guiding and time. Maybe it takes time on that edge? I don't want to take too much of your time...feel I should be getting it now....let me know if it's going on too long for you?

That is true. An "experiencer" can't go through the gate. But there is experience? is that true?

Yes absolutely, there is experience, lots of experience all the time apart from when asleep, but even then some experience in half sleep etc or dreaming.

Experience is very clear. Is an experiencer required?

Experience happens, keeps happening, then there are thoughts, commentary, but that's another experience. An experiencer can't be seen or found outside experience so I guess one is not required. Hmmm guessing isn't enough....needs to be seen....

There is indeed LOOKING. There is also experience
But is there a separate self looking?
or is Looking just happening?

Looking is just happening I know that, then there is a belief in a person looking, not real, a belief, but then a reaction to that, hard to see.

Standing looking at the sky, is there any choice about where the eyes move?
If there is a sound, is there any choice but to notice it?

Certainly no choice at all with sound, my ears can't choose to hear or not to hear, or sometimes things arn't heard if attention is somewhere else. Looking at the sky, self conciousness comes in about moving eyes and thinking about when and where they will move. I think my ego is wanting this now and feeling a bit frustrated. I appreciate your time and I feel a bit hopeless that I can't get this....I do understand it and it makes sense totally....maybe just a bit more time looking.

Thank you!!

Louise xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Don't worry about time. It is just another concept!

Ownership.

Does something was to "own" experience and make it "mine"?

this taste, this colour, this smell, this thought, this sensation, this emotion ...... "mine"?

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Don't worry about time. It is just another concept!

Oh that's good cos I don't know where the time has gone this week and I kept meaning to post then getting busy doing other stuff though I'm aware this is meant to be best done every day, so will try and keep that momentum up.

Ownership.

Does something was to "own" experience and make it "mine"?

this taste, this colour, this smell, this thought, this sensation, this emotion ...... "mine"?

.
Yes there is something that wants to own experience (and own objects - my car, my coat, my food even). More obviously with objects than with experience but I'll look at experience. Experience happens and there is awareness of it. If experience happens to another person there isn't awareness of it, so that's why it seems like 'mine'. If I eat something, there is taste and the sensation of texture and smell, and the thought about the taste, texture etc (like, dislike, sweet, sour, crunchy - yes concepts). It takes place in the mouth which I think of as part of my body.....but yes does there need to be something that 'owns' the body....seems funny. how can something 'own' a body. Owning a car yes.
Emotions happen and are felt as sensations with thoughts about what might be causing the emotions. Again it's felt in the proximity of this body, the one that I can see here that gives sensations. I can't feel sensations that are happening in another body. So the mind creates the idea these are 'my' emotions.That can make life quite hard because then there is the sense of needing to be in control of them, or have responsibility for them or fearing them etc.
Colour, not mine, the world of sight is just as it is, something seen....ah but seen by someone? I don't know about that. It's the same isn't it, is there a sense of 'someone' seeing, or is seeing just happening.

So yes there is definitely a habit of making experience owned by something...is it just thought doing that? But then there is awareness of thoughts 'my thoughts', the ones I hear in my mind. I don't hear other peoples' thoughts.

So yes I will try and post more regularly....

Very best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

If you think of an object that you own - one with some sentimental value - what says that it is 'yours'? What emotions/ thoughts/ sensations are involved in creating ownership?

Best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

I'm sorry for such a delay, I haven't been engaging with this at all. Don't know if it's just busyness or resistance. I'm trying to streamline life, it fees like too many eggs. It sounds like we're nearly there and maybe I'm bailing out. I don't know, it's a shame.....I hope to get back to you shortly, maybe over Christmas when there's some space,

Much love
Louise

[Nina45]

OK Louise!!

Have a good busy time!