Seeking

[Artyzen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the sense of 'me', Louise is a concept and a collection of thoughts, bodily sensations, memories, feelings. There is no actual Louise, though it feels like there is, but when I look I realise there can't possibly be an actual separate entity Louise.....but the feeling that there is is still very real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've had a glimpse of this but I'm not sure I've really got it. I have lots of friends who've been through this enquiry, and have been mulling over doing it for quite a long time. The time just feels right now to take things a step further and see through the illusion of a separate self. I know it intellectually, with my mind, but want to really see it, experience the ah ha of it. I act like a separate self most of the time, feel that boundary, which does cause suffering - I find myself needing to hold on to what is mine, grasping for things; Finding generosity hard sometimes. The LU method has been a bit illusive to me for a while but through my own enquiry I'm starting to understand, so really want the help now to see right through. Also to be part of a wider community exploring direct pointing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect daily questions to point me to my thoughts, beliefs etc about my sense of self, time to reflect and reply. I don't expect it to necessarily be easy - it might be challenging, but I feel really excited to be open to the enquiry and honest communication. I request Nina 45 as my guide - she has been recommended by a friend who has done LU.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating for about 12 years, firstly TM, then about 10 years, Buddhist meditation in the Triratna community. I meditate daily, belong to a local Sangha and study group for practice and spiritual enquiry. Lots of discussions with my partner who has done LU and follows the direct path. Nature lover and artist reflecting on our interconnection with all of life, seeing through boundaries, becoming aware of the changing nature of all phenomena.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

[Artyzen]

Hello, happy to be patient, just wondering how long it normally takes for a guide to pick up a request? Nina 45 was recommended and I'd love to be guided by her. Thank you!

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

I am really sorry I did not see this earlier! I am usually alerted when I get a request but I have to admit that I also wasn't looking.

Thank you so much for waiting.

This is a great opening post:

There is no actual Louise, though it feels like there is, but when I look I realise there can't possibly be an actual separate entity Louise.....but the feeling that there is is still very real.

Can you look for the feeling in actual experience Louise?

Actual experience has:
Thought
Colour (the seen)
Smell
Taste
Sensation
Sound

Where can the "feeling of me" be found?

Good luck

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Louise!

Can you look for the feeling in actual experience Louise?

Actual experience has:
Thought
Colour (the seen)
Smell
Taste
Sensation
Sound

Where can the "feeling of me" be found?

Good luck

Nina
Xxx

Good to hear from you Nina - had a very busy 2 days but just got to this now....I will reflect on that today and post back later. I hope I managed the 'quotation function right....Louise x

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, firstly a big thank you for being my guide...I've been intending to do this for a long time. So this evening looking for where this feeling of' 'me' can be found. Location wise it seems to be behind my eyes, looking out. So then I look at this place and realise that I am looking at it from a different location, from outside....so ''I'' am looking at ''me'' which doesn't make sense as the sense of me is singular. My attention is shifting focus from inside my head looking out to outside looking in. In terms of sensations inside my head feels a bit tight, tense, I have a headache. The actual sensations aren't me, they are just sensations. I think the sense of Louise is an aggregate of various different things. The particular tone of voice in my mind that is 'my voice' in my head, the particular way of an expression held on my face, particular attitudes, thoughts....lots of habitual things, that create a feeling of Louise. I'm tying hard to focus on the actual experience but I'm also thinking, which is something I do a lot. I'm also very tired, so will leave this for now and continue tomorrow. x

[Nina45]

Hello Louise,

It is great to hear from you! I hope you are well and that you have had some time off to relax today.

Before we get really stuck in, here are some ground rules:

- Put spiritual books, and videos aside. Doing meditation is fine.
- Try posting every day (even if it is a very brief message), to build momentum!
- Please learn to use the quote function (highlight the text and then press "quote" button at the top of the page)

Your reply was really great! I am going to use what you said and ask you to "look" a bit deeper.

Looking is not "thinking about" or "trying to remember", but is is looking directly at what is there in actual experience.

Actual experience is:
Sound
Colour (the seen)
Smell
Taste
Sensation
and the experience of thought (not the content of thought)

Please do ask questions for clarification if needed because LOOKING is the only skill required here!

Please take this slowly. Take time to answer all the questions asked below.

So this evening looking for where this feeling of' 'me' can be found. Location wise it seems to be behind my eyes, looking out.

Look at the location behind the eyes. What is there exactly?

So then I look at this place and realise that I am looking at it from a different location, from outside....so ''I'' am looking at ''me'' which doesn't make sense as the sense of me is singular.

There is a sense of looking "from outside".
Have a look at this.
How is it known that there is looking "from outside"?
(How is it known in AE? That is, is it known in thought, colour, sensation, taste, smell or sound?)

My attention is shifting focus from inside my head looking out to outside looking in.

Attention seems to be moving around.
Have a look:
Where does sound end and attention begin? See if it is possible to find the exact point.

In terms of sensations inside my head feels a bit tight, tense, I have a headache. The actual sensations aren't me, they are just sensations. I think the sense of Louise is an aggregate of various different things. The particular tone of voice in my mind that is 'my voice' in my head, the particular way of an expression held on my face, particular attitudes, thoughts....lots of habitual things, that create a feeling of Louise. I'm tying hard to focus on the actual experience but I'm also thinking, which is something I do a lot.

The sensations aren't Louise. Yes, they are just sensations.
Look at a sensation.
Is there a thought about the sensation?
Is there a story about the sensation?

Is this combination of thought and sensation "Louise"?

Is there only one voice experienced in thought?
Is there more than one voice?

Is there a mental image of "Louise" with a particular expression on her face?
Are there other mental images of Louise?
How many images of Louise are there?


Good luck with these questions!
It would be really helpful if you could use use the quote function when answering!

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Put spiritual books, and videos aside. Doing meditation is fine.
- Try posting every day (even if it is a very brief message), to build momentum!

OK will do! Was listening to Reginald Ray while decorating today but I will abstain from now on!
Yes I will post something everyday. A lot of questions to look at, thank you for the material to work with, I will reply to some now and look at the others over the weekend.

Look at the location behind the eyes. What is there exactly?

Shutting eyes - Sensations of flickering, movement, fizzy fuzzyness, behind that a feeling of weight or pressure. A thought about the quality of these feelings as quite dense, thick, like a dark green band (not that I can see this, that's just a thought). Open eyes - seeing what's in front of me, eyes moving around taking in my lap top, desk, lamp. Hearing sounds - the hum of the computer, cars on the road outside. Sensation of tightness around my eyes, behind my eyes I can't feel anything, aware of my scalp feeling tense.

Please do ask questions for clarification if needed because LOOKING is the only skill required here!

I'm not totally clear what LOOKING is but I think it will become clear as I go along. At the moment it feels like quite hard work, like I really have to concentrate to look and notice what is there.

There is a sense of looking "from outside".
Have a look at this.
How is it known that there is looking "from outside"?
(How is it known in AE? That is, is it known in thought, colour, sensation, taste, smell or sound?)

This is hard to answer. There is a sense of location in space of my attention. But maybe this is in my imagination. There's a sense of the thought coming from the space around my head. I don't know if this is just a thought or there are actual sensations associated with it. If I move attention around my body I know where my attention is because of sensations in that part of the body, but if I move my attention in the space outside my body I don't think I can actually feel that. I'm getting a headache!! I get a lot of headaches especially when I try and concentrate which I'm doing now. I will look at the others and post back tomorrow. Thank you! Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise-

You are doing really, really well!

Try to relax with looking. See if it helps to imagine you are looking from the "heart" rather than the "head".

Hopefullying this will stop the headaches!

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Try to relax with looking. See if it helps to imagine you are looking from the "heart" rather than the "head".

Good idea thank you, that is helpful. Bad headache all day. A brief reply now, I'll write more tomorrow.

The sensations aren't Louise. Yes, they are just sensations.
Look at a sensation.
Is there a thought about the sensation?
Is there a story about the sensation?

Is this combination of thought and sensation "Louise"?

Is there only one voice experienced in thought?
Is there more than one voice?

It seems I only experience one voice in thought. It is the voice I am used to hearing that sounds like 'my' voice, the voice I associate with Louise, ie like the sound that comes out of my mouth as I hear it.

Is there a mental image of "Louise" with a particular expression on her face?
Are there other mental images of Louise?
How many images of Louise are there?

Not so much an image as a feeling. I was walking the dog yesterday and became strongly aware of this Louise feeling, which was a combination of my posture, expression, attitude. I had the thought that this is an energy, a habit of being a certain way, but that it could be different. The feeling is like being on alert, on the look out, slight frown on my face, tension behind my eyes, a bit suppressed. It was a series of sensations in my body that reminded me of feeling states. I thought 'this isn't Louise', this is just habit energy. I'm often surprised when I see myself in a passing shop window because I look more scowly than I feel. Sometimes I feel the 'energy' of other people...my mother or father, or sometimes other people I know. I may be going off the track here a bit but am just trying to notice what it feels like when I have this sense of me-ness.
I will start to look more with the heart and see what comes up, but for now I need to go to bed!
Thanks and best wishes, Louise x

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

I've been practicing looking with the heart rather than the head as you suggested which does feel softer and kinder. Though it's hard to know how to translate the results of looking from the heart in to words. Quite a lot seems vague and fuzzy and you're asking me to really be specific with the experience. When I shift the focus to looking with the heart I feel emotional - a sense of sadness or grief in the heart. I'm very head based, analytical and I do some body based practices to try and move that focus from head to heart (yoga, dance, qi gong). So the process of looking seems quite analytical as a result of finely tuned attention, which I find quite hard to do at the moment. But here are some responses.

How is it known that there is looking "from outside"?

I have an intention to move attention around ie looking out from inside my head, looking from outside, focusing on a part of my body (as in mindfulness meditation). After that intention I have an image in my mind, so if I'm looking from outside, there is something like an aura of awareness (like a dust cloud) outside my body that contains some element of 'me' that is looking towards the physical body of me. It's not a clear visual image, it's only because I am looking to see what I notice in actual experience that this comes up. Sensations wise there's a vague feeling of expansion away from my physical body, like lightness, opening up. So how it is known is a combination of thoughts, vision and a bit of sensation.

Is this combination of thought and sensation "Louise"?

Sitting here I have a strong sense of being Louise. A very familiar feeling. A massively strong familiar sense of being that I associate with being me, Louise. And I'm trying to look and analyse how that is constituted in actual experience but it's really hard to do. I'm not clear on the qualities of LOOKING v ANALYSING. I dont' think I'm meant to be analysing but looking at the qualities of my experience feels like analysing, so some pointers would be helpful. So what is that strong feeling?I notice my breathing, sighing heavily with a bit of frustration, very familiar breath passing in and out of my nostrils, making my belly move. I'm looking at my hands typing, very familiar hands, my hands, I feel in my body like I always do, very familiar. Maybe it's the familiarity of experience that makes it feel like me. I noticed earlier today 'Louise' is constituted of lots of moments from my past, my childhood etc that I recall in memory. Like there is a thread through time that makes me me, as I know I'm not exactly who I was in the past. Images of me over the years. There is also a strong sense of the way I think that feels like Louise, which I can't really describe. But it is that sense behind the eyes, but when I put my attention in that place I just get sensations of some tightness and pressure in my head and a picture of a dark mass, not much there. So Louise is not one tangible thing but a collection of thoughts, images, sensations that make up this character I call myself.
.

How many images of Louise are there?

Loads! There's an enduring sense of me that doesn't change that much, but there are lots of 'personas'.
Thanks Nina, I look forward to your comments. x

[Nina45]

Hello Louise!

Time to look a little at fears and expectations!
It could be that a small fear or expectation is all that stands between here and the gate!
Please respond as fully as possible to the statements and questions below.

I was walking the dog yesterday and became strongly aware of this Louise feeling, which was a combination of my posture, expression, attitude.

All there is and all there ever has been in sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought.

Nothing can be lost by seeing through "this Louise feeling".

Is there a response to the above statements?

I had the thought that this is an energy, a habit of being a certain way, but that it could be different.

Is there an expectation that things will change?
How do you expect that habits and energy will be different?

There is no "you" and never has been. What could be different?

The feeling is like being on alert, on the look out, slight frown on my face, tension behind my eyes, a bit suppressed.

There is a message of "not being happy with Louise" here.
Is there an expectation that there will be a "better Louise" at the end of this process?

There is no Louise and never has been.
What could be different?


There is a lot in the answers from yesterday!

I'm very head based, analytical

Is this part of the "story of you"?

Maybe it's the familiarity of experience that makes it feel like me. I noticed earlier today 'Louise' is constituted of lots of moments from my past, my childhood etc that I recall in memory. Like there is a thread through time that makes me me, as I know I'm not exactly who I was in the past. Images of me over the years. There is also a strong sense of the way I think that feels like Louise, which I can't really describe. But it is that sense behind the eyes, but when I put my attention in that place I just get sensations of some tightness and pressure in my head and a picture of a dark mass, not much there. So Louise is not one tangible thing but a collection of thoughts, images, sensations that make up this character I call myself.

Are the stories of the past also the "story of you"? Is "familiarity" also a thought story about what it is to be "you"?
How are these stories of "you" known?
Are they known in
Thought,
Colour,
Smell
Taste
Sound
Sensation?

Is there any fear about seeing through the history of "you" and seeing it as all "story"?

Very best of luck with this.
Please record all reactions to the above.
It is very important tof look closely at fears and expectations.

Lots of love
Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Thank you Nina, I will look at all this today. In the meantime I wanted to write about my experience this morning, because I had a little insight or sense of freedom around how I was feeling. I woke feeling 'sad', 'melancholic' and noticed a stream of thoughts and reactions to this - oh no, I feel down, why is that, could it be x,y,z. I was feeling so up a few weeks ago, it's hard to get through the day etc etc. So when I meditated I decided to just notice the sensations in my body that I was labeling 'sad'. I noticed a lot of different sensations. In my chest a sinking, heavy sensation; behind my eyes, some heat and pricking like tears were wanting to happen: in my throat a tightness; a jittery, shaky feeling in the back of my neck and jaw. Just being with those sensations which were just happening. So I realized that when this happens (or any other series of bodily sensations) thoughts then arise in a stream of reaction to the sensations, which then snowballs in to a 'state'. Will post later re the other questions. x

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

That is a very important thing to notice!

Here are a couple of favourite pointers:

Does thought know what it is like to be a sensation?
Does sensation know anything at all about thought?

Look forward to you replies later!

Nina
Xxx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

That is a very important thing to notice!

Here are a couple of favourite pointers:

Does thought know what it is like to be a sensation?
Does sensation know anything at all about thought?

Look forward to you replies later!

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

It's late but I didn't get a chance to reply earlier.....

Where does sound end and attention begin? See if it is possible to find the exact point.

I can't find an exact point, they merge, as if the same thing...though I know if my attention is on sound I hear it and if my attention is on something else I may not hear it. Sound is interesting, I've looked at this before. I think a sound is coming from a particular location but if I really look or rather listen, it is just sounds of different pitches and textures coming and going and in reality I can't say that the sound is outside or inside my head, it just is, with no particular location. The location is know just from the experience of eg knowing that bird song comes from the bird sitting in the tree. Not sure if this answers this one but it's an interesting insight in to sound.

All there is and all there ever has been in sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation overlayed with thought.

Nothing can be lost by seeing through "this Louise feeling".

Is there a response to the above statements?

To the first statement, this makes life sound very limited - 'all there is'. Reducing it to bare phenomena. It feels like the richness of life is from human emotions and interaction and creativity and take away that, it's pared down, simple, a bit empty. I've heard this so often ie reading the gateless gatecrashers book (which I'm not reading right now) and I don't get the appeal or sense of this. I understand the statement is true, we add so much then, but what we add isn't that what life is about? I have a quandry over this.
To the second statement, that nothing can be lost by seeing through this Louise feeling, well there's a sense of relief, and a sense of wanting to see through this. I have had moments of really understanding it but then it slips away.

Is there any fear about seeing through the history of "you" and seeing it as all "story"?

Not intellectually, no, I'm rather thrilled at the thought of seeing it as story! Some of the weight of it might drop away. Though there is a sense of loss too, of the habit of thinking in this way. It's a paradox that on the one hand something will change because I will see Louise as story but on the other hand you say 'nothing will change'.

Lots of pointers and questions and I've only looked at a few, but I'm tired now and need to go to bed!

I'll be back tomorrow Nina, Love, Louise x