Seeking

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

My response to this line of enquiry is a sort of ''it's obvious that language symbols are used to communicate - if we didn't have these symbols to simplify experience and name objects we couldn't communicate''. So I've struggled a bit with making sense of this.

What is the relationship between the word "orange" and the actual experience of the fruit.
Consider colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation.
There are many aspects to the actual experience but they are all labelled "orange".
Yes orange is a convenient symbol used to communicate all the various aspects of the fruit, so we all know what we are referring to even if the actual experience of it may be a myriad sense experiences.
Does the fruit itself know anything about being an orange? No I don't think it has concsiousness!
Does all the experience fit the label "orange"? Yes though it could fit other labels as well.
Does the label "orange" add anything to the experience? It simplifies it.
Or is it just a random symbol? I wouldn't say it's random, it's a signifier for a specific thing.

What is the relationship between the word "I" and actual experience? The word I has been a word learnt to signify any experience that comes in to consciousness/awareness. There is actual experience, then the mind attaches the label I to that experience. Sounds happen, thoughts happen, smells occur and when this happens there is an automatic labelling of 'i' or 'me' to create a sense of indivduality or ownership.
Consider colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation.
there are many aspects to actual experience but we label them all "I".
Does colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation know anything about "I"? Nope it's just there
Does the label "I" fit all experience? Maybe not, I don't know. There may be some unexplainable experiences - like dreams, 6th sense that don't have such a sense of I about them.
Does the label "I" add anything to experience? Yes it can add a sense of ownership, individuality and separation to experience.
Or is it just a random symbol? It's not random, but signifies the sum of all aspects experienced by this body, this mind etc.

I've just answered as I've thought but am not that clear about all this Nina!

Thanks
Louise

[Nina45]

Thanks Louise!

That set of answers is very interesting. Language seems to be quite convincing.

What does "I" do?

"Yes it can add a sense of ownership, individuality and separation to experience"

How does a "symbol" do this?
Is it because there is a belief that the symbol exists?

Try looking at money. What is it?
At what point did a coin stop being a symbol for the value of a cow? When did we start believing in a a coin existing in its own right?

The orange? Does the orange own its experience?
What part of the orange holds the the "orangeness"?
The pith? The segments? The pips? The skin? The zest? The juice? The orangey taste? The zesty smell? The colour? The cell walls? The flesh?
Where exactly is the orangeness of the orange located?

Look at a nation. Is it a border drawn on a map or the people with a passport? Do borders change? Do the people change? Is the stuff within the border recognisable as a unit of experience?

Look at the "I". Where exactly is the essence of experience that is equivalent to "I"ness?
Where exactly is the unit that "owns" experience?
Does experience change?
Does the "body" change?
Does any experience stay the same?
What remains recognisable as "I"?
The skin? The liver? The heart?
Where exactly is the location of "the mind"?
Where is the owner?

Happy looking!

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

How does a "symbol" do this?
Is it because there is a belief that the symbol exists?

The mind connects the symbol with the particular group of sensate experiences - it's like an easy shortcut. So yes there is a belief that the word is a symbol that denotes something known. But to answer 'how does a symbol do this' - it's not the symbol as such but the mind responding to what it thinks the symbol means that does it.

Try looking at money. What is it? Money is pieces of paper printed with pictures and numbers or coins pressed in to certain shapes that we use to exchange for things we want to obtain.
At what point did a coin stop being a symbol for the value of a cow? When did we start believing in a a coin existing in its own right? Does it exist in it's own right - I suppose it feels like it has value but only in so far as we know we can buy things with it. In itself it is just paper/metal. It is an object that we invest with meaning because of what we can do with it.

The orange? Does the orange own its experience? No I dont' think so - I don't think it has consciousness, It is only experienced when we have contact with it.
What part of the orange holds the the "orangeness"?
The pith? The segments? The pips? The skin? The zest? The juice? The orangey taste? The zesty smell? The colour? The cell walls? The flesh? None of them specifically - the orangeness is how our minds attribute meaning to this collection of things.
Where exactly is the orangeness of the orange located? In our thoughts, not in the actual orange itself. Without awareness or thinking or communicating about an orange it doesn't really exist. Well it does, or does it? I can think about oranges growing on trees in Spain because I know that they do, but they do that anyway and it's only when humans, who need to label things, that the oranges are experienced. I'm not sure this makes sense!

Look at the "I". Where exactly is the essence of experience that is equivalent to "I"ness?
i spend most time looking at these questions - it's really hard to find where the essence of I ness is, as there is not one thing and when I put attention on the question my mind goes rather blank, it's difficult and I can't seem to think it through. I remember you saying to look with the heart so I tried doing that. I'm so more connected with my head than heart but it feels good to try that.....The essence of experience is multi layered - the sense behind my eyes, the sound of the voice in my head, a familiar gait, just a sense that is very hard to pinpoint.
Where exactly is the unit that "owns" experience? Ah well, that's opening out to awareness I think. I can't see a 'unit', one thing that 'owns' experience other than the mind creating that. In reality experiences just happen and then thinking attribute ownership. So the nearest I can get is that the mind owns it, but then awareness can watch the mind.
Does experience change? yes constantly
Does the "body" change? yes, pains come and go, sensations come and go, it ages, hair changes colour, eyes look different in the mornign to the evening, it might get fatter or thinner, wrinkles happen, it feels different as the day goes on - this morning I felt rather unwell, now I feel fine.
Does any experience stay the same? I don't know. I don't think so.
What remains recognisable as "I"? A very strong sense, feeling of 'Louiseness that I carry around.
The skin? The liver? The heart? Well I do think of the skin as my skin and it looks very familiar to me.
Where exactly is the location of "the mind"? It feels like it's in my head.
Where is the owner? It's really hard to pinpoint - the owner is created by the mind i think.

It's good to look and really challenging - not much really feels clear, I'm reading the questions and trying to look and see and answer, but often there are no clear answers, all a bit vague and nebulous. Some answers are clear but most are difficult to find...! But thank you - I like to take these when I walk the dog, it's a good time to reflect and sometimes when I'm lieing in bed.
Hope you're having a good weekend Nina
Love, Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

You are very close to the gate now. Try to look directly through the gate posts! It is there to see.

Where exactly is the orangeness of the orange located?

In our thoughts, not in the actual orange itself. Without awareness or thinking or communicating about an orange it doesn't really exist. Well it does, or does it? I can think about oranges growing on trees in Spain because I know that they do, but they do that anyway and it's only when humans, who need to label things, that the oranges are experienced. I'm not sure this makes sense!

Really great. Read this through again and then again.

What exists without the thought label "orange"?
What is the experience?
Exactly what exists without the label?
Is the label/ symbol "real"?

Does any experience stay the same?

I don't know. I don't think so.

Sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation, thoughts.... do they change? Is there any other element of experience?

What remains recognisable as "I"?

A very strong sense, feeling of 'Louiseness that I carry around.

Where exactly does "Louiseness" exist?
Is "Louiseness" a smell? A colour, a sensation, a taste? Or is it a thought? A concept?

Where exactly is the location of "the mind"?

It feels like it's in my head.

Sit and look. What is the experience of "head"?
Sensation, colour, smell, taste, smell? Is there any evidence of thought happening in the head, or any evidence of a 'mind' in the head? Have a really good look. Is it possible to locate a "mind"?
What is "mind" exactly?
Is it any different from "Orange"?

Where is the owner?

It's really hard to pinpoint - the owner is created by the mind i think.

What is mind? In actual experience? Is it the experience of thought?

Does the "owner" of experience exist anywhere other than in thought?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

You are very close to the gate now.

ooh that sounds exciting Nina!! Here are the results of looking at the questions.....

What exists without the thought label "orange"? If I think of oranges then pictures in my mind of a round orange object that I know is edible.
What is the experience? an orange in front of me...seeing an orange coloured sphere with textured surface which has a certain smell and taste if I choose to eat it, a taste I've tasted before though different each time (this is in my imagination actually as i don't have an orange and very rarely eat oranges)
Exactly what exists without the label? The form, substance, colour, taste, texture, what is seen, what is tasted, thoughts about it - 'it's a juicy orange, it's not very sweet this one, will it give my tummy ache (sometimes they do)
Is the label/ symbol "real"? The label is a word given to symbolise the coming together of all those phenomena/experiences. The symbol/label is not an experience in itself but a convenient way to signify/simplify things in the world.

Sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation, thoughts.... do they change? Is there any other element of experience?

Experience changes constantly, a constant fast flow of sounds, thoughts, sights etc coming and going, some repeating but never stable. The other element of experience is awareness of it all. Though while each micro second of experience can be defined and stated, I can't separate out awareness or put another way awareness is only there when there is something to be percieved. It gets a bit confusing and I may be side tracking here so may be for another enquiry......there is awareness of a sound for example, and looking for' I', 'I' could be equated with awareness, but then there can be awareness of being aware. And also the moment I equate I with anything it gets split from the rest of experience. I'll come back to this as I'm a bit muddled and I want to answer the other questions first.

Where exactly does "Louiseness" exist?
Is "Louiseness" a smell? A colour, a sensation, a taste? Or is it a thought? A concept?

It's very hard to pinpoint where Louiseness exists - it's mostly in my mind, in thinking, so yes it's a concept bringing together the totality of the experience of this life. A very convincing one. I do see this in glimpses that there is not actual defined separate thing that is me or anyone, but the sense of me continues - I think it will always continue, just as in a sense or a thought?.

Sit and look. What is the experience of "head"? Knowing that the word pertains to the top part of the body which contains the brain and has features. There are a lot of sensations in that area - tension, pain, the sound of my silent voice, plus a sense of space, no exact boundary between me and the space around.
Sensation, colour, smell, taste, smell? Is there any evidence of thought happening in the head, or any evidence of a 'mind' in the head? Have a really good look. Is it possible to locate a "mind"? There is definitely a sense of thought happening in the head - I've looked at different parts of the body and thought definitely doesn't happen in my knee or arm or anywhere else, though I use my gut instinct ie feelings in my body to make decisions, but thought as in the silent voice is located in my head, inbetween my ears, behind my eyes.
What is "mind" exactly? Mind is the thing that drives everything, thought and body actions, but again that is a label that we give to the collection of things that happen in driving our actions and being in the world.
Is it any different from "Orange"? No I guess not, it's a label, but we think it's real because we're just habituated to thinking that way and there is so much science/psychology around the mind. It does seem like we each have a 'mind' that directs our lives, but that could be another thought.....again not that clear here, but using words to try and work my way around seeing/understanding this!

What is mind? In actual experience? Is it the experience of thought? Mind is the experience of thought but also the experience of feeling things in the body (gut reactions) that inform mind in making decisions. It is what drives everything - things we are aware of and automatic things we are not aware of...but then again these are my thoughts about mind. It's hard to see mind in actual experience, I think it's another concept like all labels.

Does the "owner" of experience exist anywhere other than in thought? Can we have experience without thinking about it, or being aware of it. I think of other people and they seem tangible and defined and real. I'm slowly seeing Louise is not so real. When I look at one thing at a time I see in AE the flow of bits of experience and thinking behind all that and there's a lot of space around it all, but when I look at the whole or I'm just getting on with daily life I have a sense of a very convincing self.

I'm not sure if this is clear, it's all quite hard to put in to words, though I did while meditating for a few moments get some clarity on just being with the flow of experience and a sense of the futility about getting so worked up and anxious about things that happen in my life! I need to leave this now and go and walk the dogs.

Thank you for all these pointers and questions - it's not an easy task but it's really engaging and curious and lovely to have this focus on and off during my days. I really appreciate this and the questions you're asking and the little ah has's that are happening even if there's still a lot that's quite nebulous.....ENJOY THE SUN!

Love
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise -

Time to weed out everything that is not actual experience. Actual experience is
Sound
Colour
Smell
Taste
Sensaction
And the experience of thought (thought happening)
The content of thought is not actual experience.

If I think of oranges then pictures in my mind of a round orange object that I know is edible.

Try looking at a "real" fruit or vegetable.

What is the actual experience?
"Round" is a thought label.
"Object that I know is edible" is a story.
The colour "orange" is actual experience.
The smell is actual experience
The taste is actual experience
The sensation sensation is actual experience.

an orange in front of me...seeing an orange coloured sphere with textured surface which has a certain smell and taste if I choose to eat it, a taste I've tasted before though different each time (this is in my imagination actually as i don't have an orange and very rarely eat oranges)

Orange colour - actual experience
"Textured surface" thought labels
"Has a certain taste and colour if I choose to eat it" - story
"A taste I've tasted before though different each time" -story linked to another story.

Really look at the difference between experience and what thought says about it.

How is it known that the taste is different each time? What says that?

Best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Time to weed out everything that is not actual experience.

Ok it's clear...completely pared down....no story, no labels, just the actual experience. Yes I can see that. That's really helpful. It makes describing anything tricky as experience has to be translated in to words/symbols.

Today I saw/realised 'my' life as just life....it's all happening - thoughts, feelings, sounds etc...it can still all happen but it doesn't need to be owned/isn't owned by anything or anyone or by 'me'. I don't feel any different but there was that realisation or understanding or seeing that things happen without an owner.

I haven't looked at any fruit yet and am tight for time but just wanted to report back so far.

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Great to hear from you. When you get a chance, answer the questions from the previous post!

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Ok here we go.....

Try looking at a "real" fruit or vegetable.

What is the actual experience?
"Round" is a thought label.
"Object that I know is edible" is a story.
The colour "orange" is actual experience.
The smell is actual experience
The taste is actual experience
The sensation sensation is actual experience.

I have a large sweet potato. To touch it is quite cold as it's been in the fridge. It's 'heavy' - I guess heavy is a thought label. So in my hand the sensation is of pressing into the flesh and pushing my hand down, having to use my arm muscles to keep holding the object.If I move my fingers over the surface, there is some friction - it's a bit rough (a thought label) and the sensations change a bit as I move my finger around - little bumps, a root hair sticking out. Looking at it there is a browny orange colour against a whitish background (the desk it's on). It get's darker towards the edge of the orange and lighter in the centre of the object. There are small patches of different colour - darker brown, lighter orange. The shape ie the place where the orange and white meet, is irregular. I could draw it or trace my finger around it to create this sweet potato's particular form.I sniff it but can't smell anything and I don't want to taste raw sweet potato. It doesn't move unless I move it. At one end there are small wrinkles. Tomorrow I will look at some fruit which I can also taste.

Thanks Nina,

Love, Louise

[Nina45]

Yes! Keep going!

Really look for the difference between actual experience, thought and language.

Nina
Xxxxx

[Artyzen]

Thank you! Sorry caught up in busyness today! Will post again tomorrow xx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Actual experience, thought and language...

Here I have a strawberry
in AE there is something in a dish on the desk in front of me - that's a thought about it...try again. There is a field of vision, there's a bit of my nose, fuzzy out of focus and beyond that - ?beyond, that's a concept. In the space in which everything is seen at this particular moment is what I know as a red fruit called strawberry in a glass dish. It's dark red and lighter red towards the edges. It is covered in greenish/blackish specks. It has a few ' blemishes' - there are bits of the red that are faded with slightly wrinkled surface. The red against the glass creates a shape. To touch, running my finger over the surface, it's 'bumpy'. I feel the changing sensations as my finger moves, I can feel what feels like little hairs on the surface and now I can see those too. Smell - there is a small of freshness, green of plants and I know Ive smelt this many times before. Taste - sweet, makes the inside of my mouth tingle, feel the crunchiness of the skin and softness of the flesh of the strawberry inside my mouth. There's the sensation then there's the thought of those things. It is very hard to describe AE because I need to use language and the moment I do that it's a symbol? How can you describe AE? Or do you describe it just knowing that you have to use the symbology of language?

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Great question. Can language do anything other than point to experience? We have to use it, but can we be fully aware that we are just using symbols to represent or fix something.

Glass? What is that in actual experience? Colour and sound? A sensation? How much does the word "glass" limit our experience? And the thought label Strawberry is likely to lead to many stories about summers and tennis and jam and scones ...... but is that anything to do with actual experience?

And "I"? What are the stories that make "you"? What is the actual experience? What is "I" pointing to?

Best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Can language do anything other than point to experience? We have to use it, but can we be fully aware that we are just using symbols to represent or fix something.

Very good point - we have to use it to communicate but it simplifies/homogonises our experience and we can decide to bring awareness to that process - the process of how language labels actual experience and notice what is experience and what is labelling.

And the thought label Strawberry is likely to lead to many stories about summers and tennis and jam and scones ...... but is that anything to do with actual experience?

. That's to do with the imagination and memories of experiences and linking thoughts and ideas about Strawberries. That seems rich too - the richness of the imagination, the stuff that novels are made of (not that I read many novels)

And "I"? What are the stories that make "you"? What is the actual experience? What is "I" pointing to?

There are lots of stories that make me - my name, the story of my birth and upbringing, my identity as a mother, artist, meditator, my background, the things I've done in my life, my 'personality', how I relate to people, my likes and dislikes, the way I think habitually, the sound of my voice etc etc. The actual experience is moment by moment changing experience with an overlay of something in thought that unifies it to create a sense of 'mine', belonging. What is I pointing to?....I can't think of an answer, mental block.....let me be with that for a while and see what comes,

best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Great!

That is the point of this inquiry; what is "I" pointing to?

Is it a recognisable object like a "chair"?
Or an institution like a "university"?
Or something intangible like "spirituality"?

Or none of these?

Best wishes

Nina