Seeking

[Nina45]

Some great answers Louise!

I'll wait for you to catch up!

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Thank you, lots of questions and pointers. I made some notes this morning, first thing in the morning is a good time for enquiry. I'm trying to relax in to looking as I'm aware it feels quite difficult to do sometimes and I'm straining to look and my mind jumps around a lot and it's hard to specify what I find. I'm aware of the thought that I'm not trying hard enough and giving up easily (school reports were full of that). But relaxing in to it, looking with the heart as you put it does seem to help. And in general I've noticed the last couple of days my mind is a little quieter than it usually is. No idea if this is a result of this enquiry but just thought I'd mention it!

Is there a thought about the sensation?
Yes there's generally a thought about a sensation, an interpretation, a description.
Is there a story about the sensation?

Yes there's generally a reaction to the sensation - it's good, bad, pleasant, unpleasant.

Does thought know what it is like to be a sensation?
No I don't think it does, sensation is sensation, just moment by moment changing sensate phenomena
Does sensation know anything at all about thought?

Sensation can arise in response to thought. I think 'I'm anxious about leading this next class' and various sensations start happening in my body.
Ok fears and expectations.....I replied to the first few of these last night, and here are some more....

Is there an expectation that things will change? How do you expect that habits and energy will be different?
On one level yes, I expect the process of seeing through the illusion of a fixed permanent self to be accompanied by some sense of liberation, ease, understanding, comfort (or discomfort maybe). I expect a bit more distance, less attachment to the story of Louise. I expect more acceptance in my life of things as they are.

There is no "you" and never has been. What could be different?

What will be different is no longer believing in that story which will surely impact on my behaviour and attitudes - more lightness maybe. It's a hard one though, as the story of Louise is quite strong, all those images and thoughts that make up my life, my connection with my family, my neuroses etc

There is a message of "not being happy with Louise" here.
Is there an expectation that there will be a "better Louise" at the end of this process?
No not really a better Louise - that's the path of self development which I've done a load of, and have a shelf load of books and CDs about - I trained as a Life Coach but realised the endless looking to the next goal just creates dissatisfaction with the current state of play. I've recently adopted a different image that we all have, inherent in our being, what you could call 'Buddha nature' and that we shed the layers gradually to uncover this. Maybe all thoughts and images but it's a different energy from the endless frustrating search for becoming a better person.
There is no Louise and never has been.
What could be different?

Realising this would be the difference. I've heard this said so many times now - there is no Louise and never has been. I've had moments of realizing it, just really obviously, of course there can't possibly be an entity, a 'person' here. That sense is created by the mind stringing together a sequence of moments in time. So are you saying that there will still always be that sense of Louise if nothing is different?

Are the stories of the past also the "story of you"? Is "familiarity" also a thought story about what it is to be "you"?
How are these stories of "you" known?
Are they known in
Thought,
Colour,
Smell
Taste
Sound
Sensation?

Is there any fear about seeing through the history of "you" and seeing it as all "story"?

Nina, I realise the time and need to go, this is the last series of questions to investigate, but by all means respond to what I've written above. I must say I'm enjoying this process, and am getting in to it - it was a struggle at first but it now feels quite fun! Love Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Things are going very very well. Thank you so much for replying so diligently to all the questions. It is also really great to hear that it is fun! This shows the relaxation is working. :o)

For today - just one extra pointer!

Where does sound end and attention begin? See if it is possible to find the exact point.

I can't find an exact point, they merge, as if the same thing... Sound is interesting, I've looked at this before. I think a sound is coming from a particular location but if I really look or rather listen, it is just sounds of different pitches and textures coming and going and in reality I can't say that the sound is outside or inside my head, it just is, with no particular location. The location is know just from the experience of eg knowing that bird song comes from the bird sitting in the tree. Not sure if this answers this one but it's an interesting insight in to sound.

As sound is interesting keep looking!

Pay attention to sound:

Where does sound end and "the listener" begin?

Is it possible to place a credit card between "the listener" and sound?

Is it possible to find "the listener"?

Is it possible to find "the one listening"?

Or is there just sound?


Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

It was good to have one thing to focus on today. I'm now tired at the end of the day but wanted to post before going to bed....

Where does sound end and "the listener" begin?

Is it possible to place a credit card between "the listener" and sound?

Is it possible to find "the listener"?

Is it possible to find "the one listening"?

Or is there just sound?

I was aware of sound and listening during the day, especially walking the dog as I could put my attention there specifically. Am I meant to be able to put a credit card in between the sound and the listener? When I listen there are just sounds - I was in the woods, so sounds of birds, traffic on nearby roads, wind in the trees, the scuffing of my clothes, footsteps etc. All I'm aware of is the constant play of sounds coming and going. I can't identify a listener or a gap between the two or a place they meet, there just seems to be sound. Later, just now, driving back in the car the radio was on, so I was listening to the sound of someone's voice talking. But it's not just sound, it's language so I am not only hearing the sounds but I am making sense of them, which felt really wierd to realise what a feat that is. So maybe there is a gap between hearing the sounds and understanding the meaning. A gap where the interpretation takes place. Thanks Nina, not sure where this takes me but it was good to have this focus for a day - if there are lots of questions i don't have the discipline to focus on one and jump around and want to do it all!

Til tomorrow, Love, Louise x

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

I was aware of sound and listening during the day, especially walking the dog as I could put my attention there specifically. Am I meant to be able to put a credit card in between the sound and the listener?

No "shoulds"! Actual experience is what is important.

When I listen there are just sounds - I was in the woods, so sounds of birds, traffic on nearby roads, wind in the trees, the scuffing of my clothes, footsteps etc.

Great - there are just sounds. No listener can be found.
There is the actual experience "sound" and then there are the thought labels "birds", "traffic", "footsteps".

Look at sound. What comes first? Sound or the thought labels that overlay sound?

What is labelling the sounds?
Have a look - is it possible to find what is labelling sound?

All I'm aware of is the constant play of sounds coming and going. I can't identify a listener or a gap between the two or a place they meet, there just seems to be sound.

Really great. There is just sound.
And maybe some thought labels?

There is no listener.
Is an "I" required for sound to happen?

Later, just now, driving back in the car the radio was on, so I was listening to the sound of someone's voice talking. But it's not just sound, it's language so I am not only hearing the sounds but I am making sense of them, which felt really wierd to realise what a feat that is. So maybe there is a gap between hearing the sounds and understanding the meaning. A gap where the interpretation takes place

.

Is it possible to find a gap between sound and "interpretation"? Have a look at actual experience.
It there sound then interpretation? Or what happens exactly?

Reading these words, is there colour(images) and then interpretation?
What happens exactly?

Can an interpreter be found?


Best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina
It's felt a bit of a struggle today - to see anything clearly, but I have been looking at the pointers. I went on a self portrait day today! More inner portrait than likeness. Interesting concept in the light of this enquiry. Using movement and then painting spontaneously from the movement. It bought up lots of anger (again) and then upset, then transformed in to a warrior. So painting and watching the paint and brush strokes do their thing, and noticing several thoughts and observations in response, and also feeling responses in the body. Anyway coming back to the pointers from yesterday....

Look at sound. What comes first? Sound or the thought labels that overlay sound?
Sound comes first. And in fact I don't label sounds, that only happens if I'm reporting hearing sounds. So my experience is that I hear the sounds as sounds. I think sometimes there is a vague image in my mind of what the sound represents but I'm not sure of this...will have to keep looking.

What is labelling the sounds?
I find this hard to answer, I don't know. The sounds are there and then the appropriate label comes in to my mind. The name that I have learnt to represent bird/car etc.
Have a look - is it possible to find what is labelling sound?

I don't know, it's just like I know it, a knowing of the label for a particular sound. I don't know how that happens, but obviously something knows how to make it happen as it does happen.

Really great. There is just sound.
And maybe some thought labels?
Not so much thought labels in words. There are other thoughts going through my mind. My mind seems to have a constant stream of thoughts, always in my voice at the pace I would normally talk, and then there's a real irritation that it won't stop, it just goes on and on and on. Mostly sound is received as it is, and accompanied by a knowing of what the sound is - maybe that's a thought label, but it's more subtle, it's not stated, it's just known.

There is no listener.
Is an "I" required for sound to happen?

I don't think there is an I required, but hearing is required, so ears that work and are connected to brain....but when I say that I think that is part of me - ears, brain, mind etc. I guess that's a thought though.

Is it possible to find a gap between sound and "interpretation"? Have a look at actual experience.
It there sound then interpretation? Or what happens exactly?
I'm not sure if there is a gap. It seems sound is heard and interpretation or knowing happens simultaneously. I'm wondering if this is the same with seeing/vision, or with talking and understanding. I will keep looking to see if I experience gaps....at the moment they seem to happen simultaneously.

Reading these words, is there colour(images) and then interpretation?
What happens exactly?
Yes when I read or listen images come to mind especially if objects or people are mentioned. These arent' clear images, more like transparent, but certainly have an element of that person or object. But again I think the interpretation is simultaneous. I'll keep looking for this, whether there is a gap.

Can an interpreter be found?

Not at the moment, as I said it all seems to happen simultaneously by itself. But my mind wants to say that can't be so!! xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

The portrait day sounds fun!

Sound comes first. And in fact I don't label sounds, that only happens if I'm reporting hearing sounds. So my experience is that I hear the sounds as sounds.

Great!

What is labelling the sounds?
I find this hard to answer, I don't know. The sounds are there and then the appropriate label comes in to my mind. The name that I have learnt to represent bird/car etc.

"Don't know" is a great answer.
What we do know it that there are sounds and that thought labels happen!

I don't know, it's just like I know it, a knowing of the label for a particular sound. I don't know how that happens, but obviously something knows how to make it happen as it does happen.

The label is known. It is not known where the label comes from. Perfect.

My mind seems to have a constant stream of thoughts, always in my voice at the pace I would normally talk, and then there's a real irritation that it won't stop, it just goes on and on and on.

Have a closer look at thought.

Sit for about 30 minutes (or two lots of 15 minutes if that 30 mins is not possible or just take one question at a time and look at that while you are doing other activities) and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I don't think there is an I required, but hearing is required, so ears that work and are connected to brain....but when I say that I think that is part of me - ears, brain, mind etc. I guess that's a thought though.

Yes - is their a "brain" to be found in actual experience?
Does sound "happen in the ears" in actual experience?

It seems sound is heard and interpretation or knowing happens simultaneously. I'm wondering if this is the same with seeing/vision, or with talking and understanding. I will keep looking to see if I experience gaps....at the moment they seem to happen simultaneously.

Great! Keep looking. But findings so far is that there is no interpretive gap. No interpreter.....

Not at the moment, as I said it all seems to happen simultaneously by itself. But my mind wants to say that can't be so!!

Brilliant looking!
Where is the mind in Actual Experience?

Lots of questions today!
But they are all closely related.

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Brilliant thanks Nina for all your responses and pointers. I'm laughing!! I generally have Sunday's screen free - no mobile or computer but just checked emails now and will consider all this tomorrow...lots to work with....look forward to looking at thoughts! Love. Louise

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, so I have spent the day looking at thought - here are my findings in response to some of the questions.....

Have a closer look at thought.

Sit for about 30 minutes (or two lots of 15 minutes if that 30 mins is not possible or just take one question at a time and look at that while you are doing other activities) and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
There is a lot of thought and it comes thick and fast, and sometimes in a jumble, snippets of one thought, jumping to another thought. Most thoughts come as my voice in real time, planning what I'm going to do or say, or imaginary conversations with people. I had the choral movement of Beethoven's 9th coming in at times (I listened to it last night). The voice, my voice, is clear and strong, just like I hear my voice in my head, and it rarely quietens down. Images are there but fuzzier, so if the thoughts are about a particular person or event there may be a faint image of that person or place. More often I was aware of the image after I'd had that thought - ie as I brought awareness to thinking I was reminded that I had had an image - I guess that's a memory as a thought or a thought about a thought. So big monkey mind and I know from experience when I go on retreat and do lots of meditation the manic nature of thinking does settle and instead thoughts bubble up from behind my shoulders. The nature of these thoughts on retreat is different. Daily thoughts are very topical, mostly mundane, what I have to do/say etc. Retreat thoughts are sudden images or memories of places or people from long ago, more dream like. But this only happens on retreat even though I meditate daily. In response the daily stream of thoughts I have another thought/feeling of irritation and lack of peace, I wish this bloody voice would shut up for a moment and leave me alone. I've found drawing does create a focus and that thinking that is my constant voice quietens....good excuse to do more drawing! In the middle of these different groups of thoughts I have another thought that I'm bored of thinking like that and direct my attention/thoughts to something different. Left to it's own device it jumps around, given direction it might stay on a decided on thought for a while then I lose the attention. Concentration has never been a strong point for me - count to 10 breaths, hopeless!!

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Not if I just sit and notice thoughts, but if I don't like particular themes I might choose to change and think about something else.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? No, not at that exact moment, they've already happend

Where are they coming from? God only knows, where do they come from. I find it amazing that brain/mind produces such an endless stream. When I wake from sleep it's instant thinking, my voice going on and on jumping from one topic to the next.
Where are they going? They just seem to fade, peter out, disappear

Can you predict your next thought? No
Can you push away any thought? I can decide to distract myself and think about something else which stops the first thought. Tunes on my brain I can't push away.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? I can create the state, say of metta, so that more harmonious, positive thoughts and feelings occur, or I can choose to dwell on something darker, get in to ranting about my ex-husband for example so thoughts continue along that theme. So yes there does seem some choice in the type of thoughts if I set up the right environment.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? I don't think so, though I can decide to change the direction of the thought to a different thought
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts? I dont' think I can avoid them occurring in the first place, they just arise, then there may be some reaction to them - other thoughts such as 'I shouldn't think like that' or 'this is painful'
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought? I don't think there is the control to do that, generally thinking seems to think itself without direction or control.

Is it possible to control any thoughts? No they just come. But it's possible to change direction to think about something else.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
I don't agree, I dont' think my thoughts do have much logical ordered appearance at all - they seem quite fragmented and chaotic!

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Yes I've been noticing all my reactions or responses to thoughts....I realise they are just more thoughts. It's a bit like trying to imagine infinity which bizzarely is something I used to do every night before going to sleep when I was about 10. When I told my daughter she said ''Mum, you were wierd, I just think about gymnastics''. So it's hard to find what's either behind a thought, caused a thought, or a response to a thought because it's always just another thought, which partly makes me want to go aggghhhh and partly makes me want to laugh.

Yes - is their a "brain" to be found in actual experience?
Not in actual experience, just the knowledge of the anatomy that inside my head is a lump of grey matter.
Does sound "happen in the ears" in actual experience?

No not at all, I had the experience a while back of the placement of sounds - hearing something in the distance, in actuality was heard in my head, or maybe not exclusively within the boundaries of my physical head, but closer to my body than way over there. So the distance didn't matter, there was just volume, pitch, texture of sounds coming and going (and interpretations) but the first experience was of sound sort of evenly experienced in space, not directional.

Where is the mind in Actual Experience?

It feels like it's located in my head. When I think it feels like the thoughts are generated from that part of my body.
Phew, lots to write, but again it was really good to have a focus for the day, so I could look, while meditating, while walking to work and at moments during work. Thanks for that, it's quite fascinating...Lots of love, Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

You are really looking brilliantly and that is wonderful!

There is a lot of thought and it comes thick and fast, and sometimes in a jumble, snippets of one thought, jumping to another thought. Most thoughts come as my voice in real time, planning what I'm going to do or say, or imaginary conversations with people.

Look at the voice closely.
Does the voice have a location?
Is the voice anything other than a silent conversation?
Is the voice evidence that "you" exist?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Not if I just sit and notice thoughts, but if I don't like particular themes I might choose to change and think about something else.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? No, not at that exact moment, they've already happend

Indeed the thought is happening so how is it possible anything else could happen?

Taking the theme "animals", see how many animals appear in thought in 2 minutes.
Is it possible to predict or choose which animal will appear in thought next?

Where are they coming from? God only knows, where do they come from. I find it amazing that brain/mind produces such an endless stream. When I wake from sleep it's instant thinking, my voice going on and on jumping from one topic to the next.
Where are they going? They just seem to fade, peter out, disappear

No origin of thought can be found?

No destination can be found?

No controller of thoughts can be found?

Can you predict your next thought? No
Can you push away any thought? I can decide to distract myself and think about something else which stops the first thought. Tunes on my brain I can't push away.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? I can create the state, say of metta, so that more harmonious, positive thoughts and feelings occur, or I can choose to dwell on something darker, get in to ranting about my ex-husband for example so thoughts continue along that theme. So yes there does seem some choice in the type of thoughts if I set up the right environment.

No predictor can be found?

Is there is a chooser of thoughts?

Is it really possible to choose the thoughts?
Or is it that thoughts are not so convincing/ are not believed in retreat like conditions or on holiday?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? I don't think so, though I can decide to change the direction of the thought to a different thought
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts? I dont' think I can avoid them occurring in the first place, they just arise, then there may be some reaction to them - other thoughts such as 'I shouldn't think like that' or 'this is painful'
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought? I don't think there is the control to do that, generally thinking seems to think itself without direction or control.

Is there a decider?
A controller?

Is there a thinker?

Is there a belief in what the should and shouldn't thoughts say?

Is it possible to control any thoughts? No they just come. But it's possible to change direction to think about something else.

There is no controller of thought?
What is changing the direction of thought?
Is it a 'changer of direction?'
Or is it another thought saying there is a change of direction?

Yes I've been noticing all my reactions or responses to thoughts....I realise they are just more thoughts. It's a bit like trying to imagine infinity which bizzarely is something I used to do every night before going to sleep when I was about 10.

Yes - thought seems to be a tangled thread locked in conversation with itself!

Where is the mind in Actual Experience?

It feels like it's located in my head. When I think it feels like the thoughts are generated from that part of my body.

In AE there is no brain and sound does not happen in the ears. This is very clear.

What about the "mind"?
Can is be found in AE?
Have a really good look.

Best of luck,

Nina
Xxxx

[Artyzen]

Look at the voice closely.
Does the voice have a location?
Is the voice anything other than a silent conversation?
Is the voice evidence that "you" exist?

The voice does seem to have a location which is in my head. It's the identical location to where I hear it when I talk out loud. It's not a precise location, more a fuzzy sense of general location, ie it doesn't have a strong boundary, it's in the head area, could be a bit outside the boundary of my head. It's certainly not in any other part of my body, I've looked and it's clearly just in my head. It doesn't feel like a silent conversation - I know what you mean, other people can't hear the voice, but it's about 50% volume in my head as when I speak, or so it seems. I'm not sure it's evidence I exist....it's the same voice I hear that comes out of my mouth, that forms all the things I say. It seems uncontrollable, so if it's from me it's from a part that doesn't determine what is said. Is it evidence I exist, well not by itself. It has that sense of 'me' about it, I don't know!

Taking the theme "animals", see how many animals appear in thought in 2 minutes.
Is it possible to predict or choose which animal will appear in thought next?

Not possible to predict, quite interesting to see/hear the stream of animals that come, sometimes spontaneously and sometimes by association (insects, jungle animals etc)

No origin of thought can be found? True

No destination can be found? True

No controller of thoughts can be found?

I'm not sure, I find this very hard to believe. I know I'm just looking and sometimes it does seem that thoughts arise of their own accord, but I have to look more at when there is direction/choice. I have * this question to keep looking.

No predictor can be found? True

Is there is a chooser of thoughts? Hmmm as above need to look more at this....

Is it really possible to choose the thoughts?
Or is it that thoughts are not so convincing/ are not believed in retreat like conditions or on holiday?

I think it's less that thoughts are less convincing on retreat, it's more that in daily life there is so much stimulus from juggling so many things while on retreat life is simple. I noticed dog walking today, and preparing to reply to this message, that I feel I have so much on, so many different things and am incredibly busy. I then noticed that, while that is true, while I'm walking the dog I'm carrying all this 'stuff' around in my thoughts (no wonder I have a bad shoulder/neck), and actually I could choose to just be present with what I'm doing - basic mindfulness. I know this may be slightly off track but it was the realisation that all this 'stuff' is mostly in my thoughts so it's linked.

I haven't quite finished writing but need to go now.......

Love, Louise xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

The voice does seem to have a location which is in my head. It's the identical location to where I hear it when I talk out loud. It's not a precise location, more a fuzzy sense ..... but it's about 50% volume in my head as when I speak .... Is it evidence I exist, well not by itself. It has that sense of 'me' about it, I don't know!

Try reading the above quote out loud.
Then read the same quote silently.
Is the voice identical?
Is there a thought that the voice is identical?

Is it possible to read silently with a different voice?
A family member or someone famous?

No controller of thoughts can be found?

I'm not sure, I find this very hard to believe. I know I'm just looking and sometimes it does seem that thoughts arise of their own accord, but I have to look more at when there is direction/choice. I have * this question to keep looking.

Is it possible to find the controller?
Have a look everywhere.
Where is the location of the controller?
Is there a controller in the "driving seat"?

I then noticed that, while that is true, while I'm walking the dog I'm carrying all this 'stuff' around in my thoughts (no wonder I have a bad shoulder/neck), and actually I could choose to just be present with what I'm doing - basic mindfulness. I know this may be slightly off track but it was the realisation that all this 'stuff' is mostly in my thoughts so it's linked.

Is it possible not to "be in the present moment"?

Actual experience is
Sensation
Sound
Smell
Taste
Colour
Thought (the experience of thoughts appearing)

Actual experience is not the content of thought (the stories told by thought).

What actually happens when the choice is made to "just be present"?


Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Try reading the above quote out loud.
Then read the same quote silently.
Is the voice identical?
Is there a thought that the voice is identical?

The voice is not identical, it is much louder read out loud and with more vibration in my ears.

Is it possible to read silently with a different voice?
A family member or someone famous?

No it's not possible to do this (mind you I'm no good at putting on different voices anyway)

Is it possible to find the controller?
Have a look everywhere.
Where is the location of the controller?
Is there a controller in the "driving seat"?

Well there was a question earlier about 'is my voice me', and I realise that there is awareness hearing the voice, and that the location of me identified more with awareness than the voice. ie there can't be 2 mes - the voice and the awareness of the voice. Then there's awareness of the awareness, awareness of the witness, so a bit like infinity, ever expanding circles. I've been looking for the location of the controller and I haven't yet found it (I know the idea is that there is no controller but the thought or belief is that there is). It's not situated with thoughts because I've experienced they arise of their own accord. Is it situated with the awareness of actual experience. Though what is this awareness and can it be separate from AE - not really, you can't have one without the other. Is there a controller in the driving seat? In AE I find myself making decisions that I think I have decided through a mixture of thinking and feeling - ie responding to sensations in my body, gut instincts.

A previous question was about the location of mind, and I spent a long time trying to work out meant by mind. If it's more than thinking then it could also be bodily sensation ie gut feelings. In the qi gong I'm doing the instructor gets us to move our minds in to different parts of our body. So while I think mind it identified with thinking, I realise in experience mind is more wholistic and is connected to both thoughts and bodily sensations.

Is it possible not to "be in the present moment"?

No the present moment is all there is. I see it as a paper thin sliver in time, just now, then now then now. It's only thoughts that create a sense of past or future, and continuity.

Actual experience is not the content of thought (the stories told by thought). I don't understand this, why not? Well I know they are stories rather than reality but actual experience hears the content.

What actually happens when the choice is made to "just be present"?

There is a shift from not being aware of what's going on to becoming aware of what's going on, becoming able to notice, hear, feel etc. What happens is that the thought 'I am going to pay attention to the present moment' pops in to my head then I start to do that. Then often before I know it I've drifted away. I don't notice myself drifting, it's almost as if I'm not there until the next time the thought pops in to pay attention. When I start noticing the present and actual experience it feels both more simple and very busy as there is so much information in AE.

I wonder how am I getting on with the enquiry? It's really good to have these questions each day to focus on, though I think I don't look hard enough maybe. I'm also really busy but actually that doesn't matter, it's as valuable to have this going on in busyness, and fun. I keep getting headaches/migraines every week so it makes 'thinking' feel quite hard work. Some things I am clear on and others still seem tricky especially the idea that there is no controller....watching nature docs there is no controller and it's incredible what happens...is it the same with us? Is it really an illusion that we do have control. What's the point of anything if we don't have control?

Anyway, I really appreciate you guiding me Nina, I've been meaning to do it for so long and it's good. I'm not sure where it's going or how, or when, but I'll keep looking and noticing and be guided by the questions,

Love, Louise xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

All the questions asked are "pointers". Each one could potentially take you through the gate. Our conversation is going really well - you are looking but at the moment you are nothe sure what you are looking at! I will try to explain that a little more as we go along. At the moment we are looking very closely at thought - thought creates the illusion of the seperate self.

The voice is not identical, it is much louder read out loud and with more vibration in my ears.

How is it known in actual experience that the voice is "Louise's voice"?
Is is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

Is it possible to read silently with a different voice?
A family member or someone famous?

No it's not possible to do this (mind you I'm no good at putting on different voices anyway)

Is it possible to find a thought about a family member?
Is it possible to see a mental images of that person?
Is it possible to experience the sound of their voice in thought?
Are there sensations that seem to arise with the thoughts about the person?

Well there was a question earlier about 'is my voice me', and I realise that there is awareness hearing the voice, and that the location of me identified more with awareness than the voice. ie there can't be 2 mes - the voice and the awareness of the voice. Then there's awareness of the awareness, awareness of the witness, so a bit like infinity, ever expanding circles.

Look at sensation in the left foot.
Where exactly does sensation end and awareness begin? Is it possible to divide the experience into "sensation" and "awareness of" the sensation.

I've been looking for the location of the controller and I haven't yet found it (I know the idea is that there is no controller but the thought or belief is that there is). It's not situated with thoughts because I've experienced they arise of their own accord. Is it situated with the awareness of actual experience. Though what is this awareness and can it be separate from AE - not really, you can't have one without the other. Is there a controller in the driving seat? In AE I find myself making decisions that I think I have decided through a mixture of thinking and feeling - ie responding to sensations in my body, gut instincts.

Great looking!
Sensation often seems to make thought convincing.

Try watching an interesting/ enjoyable/ exciting film.

Watching the screen, notice the sensations that arise.

Do the images on the screen know anything about the sensations experienced?

Do the sensations know anything about the images on the screen?

Actual experience is not the content of thought (the stories told by thought). I don't understand this, why not? Well I know they are stories rather than reality but actual experience hears the content.

The actual experience of thought is looking at the cinema screen.
The content of thought is the stories of the characters on the screen. These stories are not "real".

What is "I" in this analogy? Where is "I" found?

What actually happens when the choice is made to "just be present"?

There is a shift from not being aware of what's going on to becoming aware of what's going on, becoming able to notice, hear, feel etc. What happens is that the thought 'I am going to pay attention to the present moment' pops in to my head then I start to do that. Then often before I know it I've drifted away. I don't notice myself drifting, it's almost as if I'm not there until the next time the thought pops in to pay attention. When I start noticing the present and actual experience it feels both more simple and very busy as there is so much information in AE.

What is the actual experience of "drifting away"? Where does attention go?

Very best wishes

Nina

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, thanks for these pointers which have accompanied me today.

How is it known in actual experience that the voice is "Louise's voice"?
Is is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

Sound, a particular texture of sound that represents 'my voice' and 'familiarity'. How do I experience that familiarity? How does it represent 'my voice'. There's a thought that I know that particular sound modulation, that I've heard it lots of times before. (There's a difference in talking out loud and thought talking but there's the same familiarity for both). There's the thought that's 'my' voice. Sensations are subtle but there is a sort of way of holding my body that I associate with Louise, or rather a collection of ways depending on the emotional texture of the moment. Images, though I generally have lots of images arising, when I'm hearing thoughts in the sound of my voice the images arise in response to the content of the thoughts, so that might be images of my daughter, or ex or whatever I'm thinking about. I dont' think there are images that are just due to hearing thoughts in the sound of my voice.

Is it possible to find a thought about a family member? Yes
Is it possible to see a mental images of that person? Yes
Is it possible to experience the sound of their voice in thought? Faintly, not clearly
Are there sensations that seem to arise with the thoughts about the person?

Yes, depending on how I feel about them I may experience sensations in my body that are a result of feeling warm-hearted, loving or angry, irritated.

Look at sensation in the left foot.
Where exactly does sensation end and awareness begin? Is it possible to divide the experience into "sensation" and "awareness of" the sensation.

Absolutely not. I can't have sensation without awareness. There is no division that I can detect, they are totally interdepedant. Though can I detect what part of this experience is sensation and what awareness. That makes my head spin. I think my rational mind says absolutely not because the idea of it is impossible. You can't have sensation without awareness of it. Hmm but in practice no I don't think I can find a division or qualities that are respectively sensation and awareness. Will have to keep looking at this one I think.

Try watching an interesting/ enjoyable/ exciting film.
Watching the screen, notice the sensations that arise.
Do the images on the screen know anything about the sensations experienced?
Do the sensations know anything about the images on the screen?

I haven't actually done this (I rarely watch TV/film) but from past experience, sensations arise in response to activity on the screen or rather in reaction to the stories. A sad event, tears pricking, an adventure, adrenalin in my body causing increased heart rate etc. No the images on the screen know nothing of the sensations I am experiencing (that made me laugh). The sensations seem to arise in direct response to the images on the screen so I guess they do 'know' something about the images but know sounds the wrong word. They respond to them directly.

The actual experience of thought is looking at the cinema screen.
The content of thought is the stories of the characters on the screen. These stories are not "real".
What is "I" in this analogy? Where is "I" found?

The I is in the looking, in the action or process of looking. I think of the analogy a bit differently. Looking at the cinema screen sounds like making an active decision to look. I experience thought more as coming to me. It just happens, I am the recipient. There's a difference in direction. I don't know if this is relevant? Where is I found? I is definitely not the thoughts. Is I the receiver of thoughts. What/who is the reciever? Awareness I guess. So am I awareness? Then it's like sensation and awareness - how do I divide the thoughts from the receiver? It's a bit brain bending this!!

Will keep looking....feel a bit unclear and confused at the moment,

Love, Louise