What is fictional about "me" and what is not.

[Desert Dog]

Hi RIck,

Sounds good - nice bit of careful looking and questioning.

Ok let's explore a different angle for a while. Lets look at how experiences occur through the senses.

To start with notice the sense of sight. Try looking at things (like a tree etc) and notice if there is an "I" that sees things? Is there a see-er? As before look at direct experience and report what is seen, rather than ideas and theories about what might be happening.

When looking at an object, at what point is the object seen? Can a point be found where the separation between the seen and the see-er happens?

Warm wishes,

Vali

[IAME]

Just to report something, not commenting on experience of latest query recommendations. I often write the query down on a small "to do" pad and carry w me to remember to inquire.

I've been working for an estate sale company, yesterday at the sale. Keeping the thought in mind "no me" or "the I doesn't exist" as I observe and am with the people I'm serving. No startling revelations, but I felt much closer to and able to relate to the people. Watching them operate as if they ARE the characters they take themselves to be. Seems to make me much more compassionate to both them and my"self."

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for checking in.

Seems to make me much more compassionate to both them and my "self."

Yes, can be one of the side effects :)

Vali

[IAME]

Damn, I'm having a problem w this whole "quote" mechanism...

To start with notice the sense of sight. Try looking at things (like a tree etc) and notice if there is an "I" that sees things?

When I look, I cannot find an "I", but a "point of view" or location that I imagine is separate and distinct. It is thinking that makes what I imagine is a separate view an "I" or me.

When looking at an object, at what point is the object seen? Can a point be found where the separation between the seen and the see-er happens?

Again, there is a location where seeing happens. There is no boundary between seer and seen. I can reach out and touch the screen, and when I walk away, it remains. It's there where it physically exists, and when this POV moves, that disappears. In a way, it seems that whatever is seen and heard here exists inside here (inside "me"), and that for every being, there is a separate and different world, even though it's the same world that's shared.

I've been thinking about animals in nature. The effort gone to to say "Choose me, I have better genes. I am stronger and different than other peacocks." Although I imagine there is no thought in the animal and no "I" involved, there is a separate sense of being, and attempts to perpetuate that. For millenia, humans assumed that it was the ability to think that made us "superior" to other species. Yet concept, boundary, division, belief seem capable of destroying us.

Lots of concepts, I know. It seems they never stop.

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Damn, I'm having a problem w this whole "quote" mechanism...

They worked well in your latest post :)

Well done for exploring seeing.

When I look, I cannot find an "I", but a "point of view" or location that I imagine is separate and distinct. It is thinking that makes what I imagine is a separate view an "I" or me.

Try to look closer, where is this location or point of view, exactly? How does thinking make the "I"? Can thoughts really make an "I"?

Vali

[IAME]

Try to look closer, where is this location or point of view, exactly?

Behind the eyes, in the head. I have never experienced awareness outside this. I imagine it's linked to this body until death. Beyond that, who knows.

How does thinking make the "I"?

Being objectified since birth creates the "I" thought. Then it becomes habitual. So thinking doesn't make it, but perpetuates it by almost constant self-reference.

Can thoughts really make an "I"?

No. An "I" cannot be created. It is only ever fictional.

[Desert Dog]

Behind the eyes, in the head. I have never experienced awareness outside this. I imagine it's linked to this body until death. Beyond that, who knows.

Ok, but try this. Sit and look at an object, for example an apple on a table. Relax and take time to explore this. Observe what is happening as you look at the apple. Can you actually find a place where the apple is 'seen'? Inside, outside, both, neither? Do this for a while and explore to avoid making a quick judgement or assumption as to what is happening.

[Desert Dog]

P.s. I'm in Vietnam for 2 weeks now. I'll keep replying but there maybe days when I have no internet so do t worry if you don't hear from me :)

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

How's things? Haven't heard from you for a while.

Vali

[IAME]

As retired people can, I took a spontaneous vacay to visit my kids and grands. Then I took off for Galveston. I love the ocean (Gulf of Mexico in this case) and had not been for a few yrs. Staying as a house guest or at a motel, I haven't been online much.

BUT I have been looking! My grandson is 5 and just started kindergarten. I took him to school and had lunch w him twice. It was inspiring to watch little humans that are new to identity. To see how open and free they are. And how the fiction is being learned, and how much they want it---to be a solid self. I'm not sure how one would go about training them for life without an "I" or "me", but then this is the first I've thought of it.

My granddaughter is 4 months. Already it's current human nature to instill identity: "You're such a pretty girl", "Momma loves her baby", saying her name over and over. Still, identification is not there yet, and she lives in pure being, wide eyed and free.

On the beach, I remembered Ramana's awakening. How, terrified of death, he lay down and invited it. What came instead was death of the identity. I tried this in the surf, the "dead man float." Fortunately, beaches here are pretty deserted this time of year.

I have an apple here on the table, so let me try your experiment, and I'll get back to you.

[IAME]

By the way, thank you for checking in.

Ok, but try this. Sit and look at an object, for example an apple on a table. Relax and take time to explore this. Observe what is happening as you look at the apple. Can you actually find a place where the apple is 'seen'? Inside, outside, both, neither? Do this for a while and explore to avoid making a quick judgement or assumption as to what is happening.

At first, I began looking for where it was seen. Then I remembered the old test given when I was a kid that said read to the end before beginning, the trick being the sentence at the end said to ignore the previous instructions except for #1...

So THEN I sat and relaxed and observed what was happening. Which was lots of thoughts: "Where am I seeing this, inside or out or both? What about a star, I can see it, but can' touch it like I can the apple, does that mean it's outside? There seems to be no barrier between me and anything, only a felt sense inside, and an idea that I can't feel what's outside me unless it touches me (wind, sunshine, a human.)" On and on...

No conclusions here, only a thought that whatever is closest to me, whether in actuality or image (TV, radio, computer) or thought (family, friends, people I'm upset with) are "real." Mind tells me this is not so, well, that thought IS real, but the problem is that the thinker is fiction, and that creates all sorts of sand in the machinery.

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Yes, it is hard to find what is inside or outside in the experience of seeing. Also it can feel like 'I' am looking 'outward', a sense of direction. And yet, at least according to scientists, light is being received, coming towards. So this is worth observing to, how does it feel to receive the light.

So now, what does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?

Vali

[IAME]

After vacation, I have returned and am facing some challenging circumstances. Financial ones out of my control. The election is heating up, and I have strong opinions (and some fear) around the outcome. All this feels very personal. How does it help if I know "I' is fiction? Am I doing this to feel better (I am feeling good anyway...)? The personality/ego feels under attack. And I suppose it is, both from outward circumstances in conventional ways, and from this inquiry.

If I examine it intellectually, there is no separate "I, me or mine." But when strong emotion occurs, it FEELS as if there is. When I feel under threat (mostly imaginary, I am aware), I seem to contract into habitual and familiar identification. Who needs to be protected? What's behind this feeling of threat? These I pose to myself. Suggestions appreciated!

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Yes the emotional playing field is where some really good work can be done.

So while this is going on welcome it as a valuable resource to work with.

When these strong and difficult emotions arise ask questions like (I'm using fear as an example but of course you can substitute whatever is arising like anger, hatred, anxiety etc):

"Who is experiencing this fear?"

"Where is the 'Me/I/Rick' in this fear?"

"Where is the fear, exactly? What does the fear look like?"

Also the 2 questions you mentioned are good too, so use those - ie

Who needs to be protected? What's behind this feeling of threat?

Report back what you find :-)

Vali