What is fictional about "me" and what is not.

[IAME]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
A desire to experience "selflessness." To see if I can see that the "I" is fictional, and to experience what actually exists here independent of the concept of I, me, my. I understand the concept pretty well, but also know that the word "orange" cannot capture what it's intended to convey. Knowing the words and concepts is a booby prize.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
What I would LIKE is an experience of selflessness. I'd LIKE for the internal dialogue to stop, to slow, or to become a witness of it. I do not EXPECT any of that to happen. What I DO expect is to have a dialogue with a person who may have had such an experience who is committed to guiding me there.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
At 19, in 1969, I read Autobiography of a Yogi, and was hooked on seeking via Eastern Paths. I was inititiated on the Radha Soami path, followed their moral guidelines and Charan Singh for 20 yrs. Left that path for a similar Westernized one in '89, and followed it until '04. Did Presence Process 5+ times, Radical Honesty, trained to be a Scott Kiloby facilitator, passing initial test, then dropped out. Was AA for 8 yrs, could no longer handle its spirituality. Agostic, no longer believe in a personal God.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
8

[Desert Dog]

Hi IAME,

Welcome to the gate! I'm happy to be your guide on this journey.

I'm assuming you have read carefully all the info when you signed up but now we've started can you re read it so you are clear of the guidelines - http://liberationunleashed.com/register/start-here/

In terms of expectations you wrote:

What I would LIKE is an experience of selflessness. I'd LIKE for the internal dialogue to stop, to slow, or to become a witness of it. I do not EXPECT any of that to happen. What I DO expect is to have a dialogue with a person who may have had such an experience who is committed to guiding me there.

Can you say more about who you imagine the 'experience of selflessness' would be like - who would that feel? How would it change you?

Warm wishes

Vali

[Desert Dog]

(Correction: Can you say more about how you imagine the 'experience of selflessness' would be like - how would that feel? How would it change you?)

[IAME]

(Correction: Can you say more about how you imagine the 'experience of selflessness' would be like - how would that feel? How would it change you?)

Hi Val
Thank you for working with me. I appreciate the service.

General info: I am currently in/near Wash DC helping my bro & his husband move and set up their new home, and have been offline since I signed up. I will now be here and able to respond, and will fly home Tues.

I have been reading "Gatecrashers" and the Sam Harris book "Waking Up" and other non dual materials for the last wk or so, and occasionally getting a sense of freedom when I loosen up, and watch myself and bro & hub, and letting go of my thoughts as being "me", and noticing how seriously everyone seems to protecting and defending whatever they've consciously or uncon. defined as themselves.

I imagine a fuller and more direct experience of no self would include more moments of this feeling of freedom and joy. I imagine it will help in accepting pain, physical or mental as it is without comparison and projection around it. In other words, pain still hurts, but "I" don't need to multiply it by believing thoughts about it are "me."

I imagine that these changes would occur in all parts of my life, because all parts have appeared as "me." If there is no me, then how I have lived has consisted of how I think and feel about it, and believing that these thoughts and feelings are "me". I imagine that this could result in fear arising as well (I had panic disorder earlier in my life.) I imagine that as "no me" dawns, that all arisings will be seen as what is, and accepted as they are.

And I HOPE it is a spectacular experience!

Rick T

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for this.

For this approach to work the best thing to do is to put aside all expectations. Holding on to ideas about how an imagined future self will be can really get in the way of looking with direct experience. Also hoping for some kind of experience can also hinder this process. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not an experience, it is rather a direct seeing. Experiences may well happen during the process but these are more like side effects - and usually different for each person - and they pass quite quickly.

So are you happy to put aside any expectations and hopes for experiences and simply work with what is happening in direct immediate experience?

Ok, a new question:

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

Try not to think too much about this, simply write honestly what thoughts, emotions or sensations come up when reading this.

Warm wishes

Vali

[IAME]

Yes, I see expectations are barriers. Good point.

What comes up at the moment is that I can see that is not and never has been a "me." There has been an animal that can see, hear, feel, smell. I remember when my grandson was born, I saw a being completely open to experience, wide eyed, taking it all in. When I saw the corpses of my mom and dad, they were no longer there.

So I "know" what you're asking, and feel myself letting go. I also feel a clinging, a little anxiety and tightness. More annoying than upsetting.

I am in new surroundings, around my bro and his husband. Been around them many times before, but not so intimately---always together, working to exhaustion. I've observed them and the way they habitually relate, how bickering bothers me, how I occasionally want to engage or fight back, then notice that that's MY habit, coming form MY fictional character. And feel more distant from that character, freer and lighter.

Thank you again,
RAT (my initials. My mom's were CAT...)

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Good to hear in general that you feel a sense of letting go and lightness around this.

So I "know" what you're asking, and feel myself letting go. I also feel a clinging, a little anxiety and tightness. More annoying than upsetting.

Can you say more about the "anxiety and tightness" felt? Can you describe where this is noticed, how it feels and what the anxiety is about? Also, try having a look behind the anxiety (so to speak) - what is there?

Vali

[IAME]

When I was 22, I had a major panic attack (my psych suggested it may have been a psychotic break) while REALLY stoned on hash. I was terror stricken, feeling like I was in a black void. These attacks began to recur periodically for no discernable reason. So from a public speaker, actor, I became almost agoraphobic. I was truly afraid that I might be going insane.

It wasn't until I was 45 that I found a book that described what had happened, was happening to me. This gave me a lot of relief, but the habit of fear of fear was there. Over the years it has eased, almost disappeared. But depression still occurs occasionally. Mainly over regretting letting fear get in the way of leading a more fulfilling life.

So, what I notice when I speak of fear in relation to letting go of or seeing the illusion of self is a little clenching in the chest and abdomen, throat a bit tighter. The thought that comes up is of an unconscious fear of being pulled in to that black void.

So I have been engaged since we began talking with looking for a self, a me. I try to keep this in mind as much as possible. I notice the thought "I am composing this, I am typing, I am deciding what to say. There IS a director, and it is me." This seems to be located behind the eyes. May be that this is just a location of awareness for this body, and the naming of it as me is only a thought, a habit, but this has not as yet sunk in.

Hope all is well in the Desert, Dog!

RAT

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your honesty. Sounds good that you were able to get clarity on the fear episode.

Let's look into this a bit more. Try reading this again:

There is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be.

If you notice any fear in response to this try to stay with it for a while. Notice where it is physically felt in the body. Notice any sensations.

Can you see that the fear is like a protection mechanism? It's fine for fear to be there and is doing a great job in providing this protection. So try to let it be there and acknowledge its presence with respect and gratitude.

Now ask:

What is this fear?
What is the fear protecting?
What is it that needs to be protected?
What is it that feels threatened?

Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask the fear to share it’s wisdom.

If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected, right?

Honor the feeling. Bow to it, thank it for doing it’s job. Notice, it is here to protect, it's a friend. Fear is really love in disguise. It is only showing you where to look, the dark areas.

Now look behind the fear. Is there anything behind the fear? If so, what? And what is behind that?

Warm wishes

Vali

[IAME]

When reading the sentence "There is absolutely no you in any way..." I notice almost no feeling at all. It's more like, "Yeah, that's what were talking about", and it's kind of neutral to me.

And I do occasionally feel fear come up, and much more OK with the experience, and feel much less threatened than I used to (this is for almost the last decade.)

When I was a child, I read about a boy who could not feel pain. Boy, was I jealous! I was on the losing end of many little boy fights. If I didn't feel pain, I'd never back away! Then my mom pointed out that I'd probably be dead. That was the beginning of my understanding of the validity and need for all the feelings. Fear included.

But "I" have found them threatening, contracted, hidden away. And that has faded.

As to the 4 questions, I want to let them sink in a bit. Sleep on them. "Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask the fear to share it’s wisdom." I read in Gatecrashers about the guy who broke through as the result of a dream. I'm not expecting this, it's just that things like names I've forgotten seem to come to me when I ask and wait for the answer to come.

I will say though that even if there is no self, there IS the body to be protected, which is why we evolved with pain and fear. AND if there is no me, then those feelings can be invited to be the protectors they are.

Again, your efforts are much appreciated. Thank you.

Rick T

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Yes, that's fine and a very good idea to sit longer with those questions to see what comes.

One of the keys to this process is learning to sit and be with your own inner suffering so that you can meet what is here now without resistance, with complete acceptance.

Safe travels today,

Vali

[IAME]

I made a list of the 4 questions to carry w me, and have been looking to remind myself to ALLOW the questions to be answered in addition to what comes up mentally.

I flew home from DC yesterday. When I was in my early '40s and still ignorant of what Panic Disorder was (and still afraid that I might be going insane), my parents booked a flight for me to visit at XMas. I had an attack, and could not board. I lied to them about a work emergency. I began flying again later after treatment and coming to a better understanding of anxiety/depression. SOOOO, I engaged w the questions before and during the flight, and had sparks of the old fear come back. Before, when I was caught in the worst of the disorder, I was afraid of being in a confined space from which there was no escape, so if I freaked out, I would be noticed, to say nothing of drastic consequences with airline security!

Now the feelings pass. In the body there was an overall constriction, and thoughts of "Oh, no!" BUT I am not as afraid of the thoughts. I am NOT the thoughts. So overall it was a pleasant flight, as flights go. I read another "gatecrashers" story, and more in Sam Harris "Waking Up" book, which I'd started before we began.

Before you'd asked, I'd begun to ask about what was behind some thoughts and feelings, probably some fears or depressions that had come up, or just behind thinking in general. As I've looked, I've felt an enormous silent space. Almost neutral, observing (and kind of not, because it takes an entity to observe), more a beingness that accepts all that is as it is.

During the day and night, I also consciously ask "Who am I?", and ponder "the I doesn't exist."

[Desert Dog]

Hi RIck,

Glad you travelled well.

Now the feelings pass. In the body there was an overall constriction, and thoughts of "Oh, no!" BUT I am not as afraid of the thoughts. I am NOT the thoughts. So overall it was a pleasant flight, as flights go. I read another "gatecrashers" story, and more in Sam Harris "Waking Up" book, which I'd started before we began.

Sounds like you were working with all this really well - great to read.

Before you'd asked, I'd begun to ask about what was behind some thoughts and feelings, probably some fears or depressions that had come up, or just behind thinking in general. As I've looked, I've felt an enormous silent space. Almost neutral, observing (and kind of not, because it takes an entity to observe), more a beingness that accepts all that is as it is.

Brilliant! As we continue, try to keep coming back to this 'enormous silent space'.

Ok so a new question:

What does the word "I" or "me" or "Rick" point to, here and now? Please describe in detail – Where is it? Can you point your finger at it? Does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

Vali

[IAME]

"I" or "me" or "Rick" are conveniences of language that point to this animal. The convenience, learned so early, becomes habitual. Like the Tar Baby in Uncle Remus. But this description assumes the place of what I am, and looking too closely can be scary, because I can lose what I think I am. It's all thoughts, all thoughts upon thoughts.

Always this has been located behind the eyes, this seat of consciousness that gets named. So yes, I can point at that. And no, it has no shape or form or sense quality. When I step behind the thoughts (which are always running, stepping or not), there is a silent, spacious presence that seems to accept or reject nothing. Just is.

Some things about the last few days: As I was on the plane, I went to the bathroom. When I looked in the mirror, it was quite peculiar, as if I didn't know that person. I felt almost embarrassed to look. A little scary, unsettling.

I have been thinking about "no me" as I go about whatever I'm doing. Most often I feel stuck on the surface of me, identified with the thoughts, feelings AS me. Read Ilona's "7 Steps" (there are only 6!) She mentioned getting into nature, observing that nature natures, trees treeing, animals animaling. Me thinking. And that "me" does feel looser, less attached to the idea of me, less need to defend myself (my story, my opinions.)

I want to respond right away, but for some reason I don't get, this took a little longer.

Rick T

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

So far, so good. Ok try this:

Sit in a chair. Take a bit of time to notice what is happening in the moment - notice any sounds in the environment you are in, any sights, any smells. Notice any thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions. Just let it all be there. Do this for a few minutes.

Now get up and walk... slowly... around. Can you find a controller that is controlling the walker? If so please describe what you find.

Try not to have any ideas or preconceptions about what you think is correct - start with a blank canvas without expectations or ideas as to the right answer. And then write down what you find in direct experience without analysing the experience.

Warm wishes

Vali