What is fictional about "me" and what is not.

[IAME]

There was a constant flow of thoughts: "Now stand up. Walk up the hall. Go in the back yard? No, too dark. Open door quietly. Walk down drive. Keep going? No, people think it's weird for someone to be walking at 4am."

The thoughts seem to be directing what the body is to do. And it's my habit to think that thoughts that direct have a director. Even now typing, thoughts direct. They don't seem to come from nowhere spontaneously, but to be consciously directed. Is this just a habit of thinking too?

PS Yesterday at Walmart I was picking up an air cleaner and had to talk to a teller and manager. It was listed online as a "rollback" and cheaper than it rang up. Although I didn't notice it going in, I was in a more open state from this work, and the people I interacted with seemed to light up, to smile. I've had this happen before after an awakening experience in est. And the primary driver of "getting it" in est was being told "You are a machine!" Much like "There is no you."

Rick T

Oh yeah, IMO most of us lost the est awakening because we wanted to hold on to the experience.

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Well done for working with this exercise.

They don't seem to come from nowhere spontaneously, but to be consciously directed.

Can you find anything that is consciously directing? If so is that Rick? Where is it?

Another similar exercise to try. Over the day look at points when choices seem to be made. Like whether to have Tea or Coffee etc. When the choice is made, try to notice while this is happening if you can find a 'self' that is making the choice - is there a "chooser"?

You can also do a more controlled exercise like this:

Sit at a table and put your right hand on the table. Leave it there for a while and as you do that notice everything happening in that moment. Then at some point lift the hand off the table. Can you find the 'chooser' that chose to lift the hand? If so please describe what you found.

Warm wishes

Vali

P.s. When you say 'est' do you mean "Erhard Seminars Training"? It's not something I've heard of before so had to google it!

[IAME]

Have been practicing this as often as I could remember the last day. Thoughts come up "lift your hand" "get coffee" "go to Costco" I look to see if there's anyone commanding it. All that's there really is the thought. And I am so used to also think that it's ME that's thinking the thought. And although ME cannot be found when looked for, it seems nonsensical that it's coming from nowhere. Maybe it's not nowhere, but, as a guru of mine once said of the personality "It's a bundle of thoughts tied by a string of habits" that just seems to be an entity.

In an effort to keep this in mind, I read Gatecrashers, Elena's and Ilona's blogs. It all makes sense, but this animal feels pretty stuck to the "I". I keep remembering seeing my grandson almost immediately after he was born, and looking into his wide open eyes, and feeling like I was seeing an enlightened being who was fully open, just looking. I know that that's there in me as well, and although it feels buried deep under years to training and conditioning, it's not really. Just a glimpse away.

Yes, est was quite a big deal from the mid 70s to the mid 80s. Then it got attacked by Scientology, who felt Werner has stolen some of their techniques and MANY of their potential clients. However he had put it together, it was VERY powerful, and cracked the Cosmic Egg for many of us. It has transformed now into Landmark Technologies. I participated w them for a few yrs as well. AND I'm here now, so you can see that although it may have cracked the egg, it didn't hatch the chicken.

Thank you again!

Rick T

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Some good work there. Keep going!

It all makes sense, but this animal feels pretty stuck to the "I"

Can you describe this "I" that the animal is stuck to? If you look, where is it to be found? Or is it just an idea?

Can you describe the experience of feeling stuck to this "I"?

Thanks for the info on est - interesting to hear. Keep pecking at that egg...!

Vali

[IAME]

The "I" that this animal feels stuck to is memories, feelings, outstanding sensations remembered, things I'm proud of/ashamed of, compliments, insults, resentments. In looking, these are all thoughts, and not all present all at once. The location is the animal brain, where this individual being is present, where this consciousness resides.

I can agree that it's an idea. AND I'm frustrated because the idea that it's an idea doesn't seem to liberate me from the idea! It feels tantalizingly close, and at the same time like it's the "I" who is reaching for it. And if this is all so, the "I" can never have it, can only stand in the way. And the feelings of opening, greater freedom, more ability to connect w others are there. Maybe a little fear of letting go completely, of the loss of the "I". And really, it's OK, because it's never been there anyway, and all carries on. In fact, carries on better without an imaginary character wedged between the animal and the feelings and senses. The feeling of stuckness is a combination imagining something "I" want --- freedom, liberation, flow, oneness --- and wanting them for ME, as an enhancement, and knowing (if what y'all say is so) that that's not possible. It's like wanting to drop the rock so much that I'm gripping it tighter.

It's so easy to look outside myself and see the damage belief causes. ISIS is an easy target. Or the other political party (whichever one you do not favor.) Or a God made in man's own image (who in the West most closely resembles Santa Claus with a bad attitude.) And most fundamental is an addiction to the familiar, and the attempt to preserve a separate self.

:)

Rick

[Desert Dog]

The "I" that this animal feels stuck to is memories, feelings, outstanding sensations remembered, things I'm proud of/ashamed of, compliments, insults, resentments. In looking, these are all thoughts, and not all present all at once.

So the "I" is a collection these things that aren't' always present. So if at one time the only one of these present is 'resentments' and then that goes and then 'insults' appear etc - how does the "I" jump between them?! Try to notice this happening in direct experience now rather than abstractly thinking about how this process might work. Describe what you notice. Is this "I" anything other than a label?

Can you describe the 'stuck' thing? Can you try to notice this sticking happening and describe this more - what happens, where?

The location is the animal brain, where this individual being is present, where this consciousness resides.

The location of what exactly? Where exactly in the brain? It sounds here like you are writing about ideas and assumptions you have - rather than from direct experience in the moment. For all the questions I ask please do try to investigate and write from direct experience - rather than from ideas or assumptions you may have or learnt or read about what is happening.

I can agree that it's an idea. AND I'm frustrated because the idea that it's an idea doesn't seem to liberate me from the idea! It feels tantalizingly close, and at the same time like it's the "I" who is reaching for it.

Investigate this frustration a while. What is being reached for? What else is there other than what is happening now? Are you seeking an experience?

Vali

[IAME]

Was reading something that brought up thought of ex-wife. Feelings of anger and resentment come up (tightness in chest and throat.) Thoughts of unfair and abusive treatment. Next e-mail came up, your last one. Thoughts of "oh, good." Read mail. Feelings of "uh oh, not doing it right" along w tightening of chest, throat.

HOW it happens seems to be that thoughts & feelings change almost immediately if I'm not TOO upset. Whatever shows up, new thoughts and feelings come up, seemingly automatically without any, or much, forethought.

This is another indication that the "I" is just a label.

With my eyes open, it seems like the "I" is located in the head, behind the eyes, and has the same physical boundaries as the skull. When I close my eyes and let go of the physical feeling of boundary, awareness can expand infinitely. If I do this in meditation and fall asleep, the "I" disappears altogether.

There is never anything happening aside from now. And my mind can reach backward or forward in time and respond as if my imaginings were real.

Yes, I AM reaching for something. Yes, an experience like I had when I "got it." A unity experience. Joy and openness.

Frustration says "You're not getting it. Maybe you won't. Ever." Frustration is not getting what I want --- the experience above, feeling good or better about "my self." Kind of like not being able to remember a name, something I know, but can't reach. "Stuck" is this frustration. The feeling of not getting it. Stuck to "I" because I'm afraid to let go of it, because who knows what's out there without the "I".

Rick

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Feelings of "uh oh, not doing it right"

There are no right or wrong answers here - and no judgement - you are safe to relax into this space and be 'yourself' :)

Yes, I AM reaching for something. Yes, an experience like I had when I "got it." A unity experience. Joy and openness.

What is it NOW that is wanting to reach for something? Look, what else is there other then what is? It's all here. If there is a reaching for something else, what is it about what is here now that is needing to be changed? What is being rejected? Really look at this and describe what you find.

Stuck to "I" because I'm afraid to let go of it, because who knows what's out there without the "I".

Remember you looked behind the fear and found "there is a silent, spacious presence that seems to accept or reject nothing."?

Warm wishes

Vali

[IAME]

"What is it NOW that's wanting to reach for something" At this moment, nothing. I am satisfied with everything as it is. When I want to reach for an experience, it's the "I" that feels that this is not enough, that I am not enough and need this to be complete and satisfied. It is years (since I discovered all this at 20) of expectations and desires for Cosmic Consciousness, and the carrot at the end of the stick of almost every spiritual path I've followed. So to succeed, I need this as well. "I" want/need it. So it's the desire created by an imaginary being who seems to be living my life, almost like being possessed, and living is being missed out on.

There is NOTHING other than what is. The what is that's experienced from this location is all that's available here. All else is imagination, some purposeful (how do I do what I need to accomplish next, enjoying astronomy, or descriptions of how other cultures live) or not (the current, past, future of the adventures of the imaginary "me.")

If I am experiencing feelings I do not want, I want these changed. I know "What you resist persists", but sometimes knowing that just makes me feel worse when I cannot or do not want to let go of these feelings. Now I want to change the resistance, compounding the resistance. Now I want to let go of the "I" that's engaged in all this in the first place.

"There are no right or wrong answers here - and no judgement - you are safe to relax into this space and be 'yourself' :)" Thanks, I needed that. It opens me a little more...

I'm reminding myself to keep "what needs to be changed" and "what is being rejected" as consciously present as possible. And to spend time stepping back into what lies behind fear, all feelings, everything.

As always, thank you!

Rick

[Desert Dog]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your replies here. One adminy point - when you quote things I've written can you use the quote function? You just highlight the bit of text you want quoted and then click the quote button in the formatting menu bar above the text box. Easy. (see here for more info: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660). Then they look like this:

Example bit of text quoted.

It makes it much easier for me to then read but also once we have finished it's much easier for other guides to read through when they review the process.

ok...

When I want to reach for an experience, it's the "I" that feels that this is not enough, that I am not enough and need this to be complete and satisfied.

What is the "I" that feels this is not enough? Lets look more closely at this. Look now and try to find what it is that wants more than what is here now - what is that? You say it is the "I" as if that is some other person standing next to you that feels this is not enough. But try to look and find something that is not just a label that feels that this is not enough - can it be found? If so please describe what it is. As before, not ideas about what this might be, but describe what is noticed in direct experience.

Warm wishes

Vali

[IAME]

These have been hard questions for me to answer.

What is the "I" that feels this is not enough? Lets look more closely at this. Look now and try to find what it is that wants more than what is here now - what is that?

As I dig deeper, it feels like a child's wanting. The gut contracts with a desire to have something. One can "want" without an "I", but this has something else added in. And I know it's the desire to enhance the fictional "me." When I've looked at it, NOW is almost always fine as it is with nothing added. It's when I move out of the direct experience of NOW that "I want" occurs. And it feels like I'm trying to figure this out. So I'm confused here. Asking confusion what it has to tell me.

You say it is the "I" as if that is some other person standing next to you that feels this is not enough.

So clear to see after you said this. Adding a layer instead of shedding one.

Incomplete answer, I know. I send it now to keep the process going, and because I feel a little stuck.

Many thanks,

Rick

[Desert Dog]

Hi RIck,

So I'm confused here. I feel a little stuck.

That's ok. It's often part of the process to feel confused. From the perspective of the "I" and of thought, this can't be understood. The "I" is based in a world that is made up of dualities, of separate things, so how could it understand a non-dual existence, a world of non-seperation, and a world where IT (ie the "I") doesn't actually exist. It's like the David Foster Wallace joke of the fish in water:

Two young fish meet an older fish, who asks them “How’s the water?” The younger fish look at each other and say, “What the hell is water?”

So I encourage you to keep working at this despite the confusion - in fact welcome the confusion - and face it - and ask, "who is confused"? At some point things will shift.

As I dig deeper, it feels like a child's wanting. The gut contracts with a desire to have something. One can "want" without an "I", but this has something else added in.

What exactly is "wanting"? You say the gut, but what do you mean by that - exactly? Try to pin point this, really look at what is wanting, is there something there that you can find, or is it just wanting happening? How would you describe the "wanting"?

What exactly is this something else that is added in?

And I know it's the desire to enhance the fictional "me."

Is that true? Who and what knows this? How is this known? Or is it just an assumption?

Warm wishes

Vali

[IAME]

When I looked, I noticed "wanting" has a physical location. When I wanted an experience of non duality, my gut clenched. When I think of romantic desire, I feel a tingling in the center of my chest, sexual desire in the crotch and I'll salivate. Behind those are memories of past acts or attachments, remembered wants and desires. These have no form, and pass quickly if not paid attention to. So wanting, or desire just happens. Most often when it comes up, if I pay attention, it's kind of a surprise.

It's an interesting time of year for me. I am a lifelong Texas Longhorn fan, and big Dallas Cowboy supporter. It's interesting to observe this, the passion for my teams. It's not as personal as it used to be when I was younger. But in situations like this, it's MY team, or politically, MY candidate, MY nation. And it all feels a little insane. Sports a little less so, because after all, it IS a game. I'm wondering how all this will feel as the ME disappears... (I know there is only ever NOW...)

k"]And I know it's the desire to enhance the fictional "me."[/qu[quote="Ricote]
Is that true? Who and what knows this? How is this known? Or is it just an assumption?

Honestly it's an intellectual knowing. Who knows is the "I" that seems real to me. What is that "I"? A long term habit of identification of thought and feeling as "me." It is not known, it IS only an assumption.

Inviting confusion, and asking it to reveal what it has to show me. ( A friend used to say many years ago "Paradox and confusion are guardians at the gate."

Thank you again,

Rick

[IAME]

When I looked, I noticed "wanting" has a physical location. When I wanted an experience of non duality, my gut clenched. When I think of romantic desire, I feel a tingling in the center of my chest, sexual desire in the crotch and I'll salivate. Behind those are memories of past acts or attachments, remembered wants and desires. These have no form, and pass quickly if not paid attention to. So wanting, or desire just happens. Most often when it comes up, if I pay attention, it's kind of a surprise.

It's an interesting time of year for me. I am a lifelong Texas Longhorn fan, and big Dallas Cowboy supporter. It's interesting to observe this, the passion for my teams. It's not as personal as it used to be when I was younger. But in situations like this, it's MY team, or politically, MY candidate, MY nation. And it all feels a little insane. Sports a little less so, because after all, it IS a game. I'm wondering how all this will feel as the ME disappears... (I know there is only ever NOW...)

k"]And I know it's the desire to enhance the fictional "me."[/qu[quote="Ricote]
Is that true? Who and what knows this? How is this known? Or is it just an assumption?

Honestly it's an intellectual knowing. Who knows is the "I" that seems real to me. What is that "I"? A long term habit of identification of thought and feeling as "me." It is not known, it IS only an assumption.

Inviting confusion, and asking it to reveal what it has to show me. ( A friend used to say many years ago "Paradox and confusion are guardians at the gate."

Thank you again,

Rick

[/quote]

[IAME]

When I looked, I noticed "wanting" has a physical location. When I wanted an experience of non duality, my gut clenched. When I think of romantic desire, I feel a tingling in the center of my chest, sexual desire in the crotch and I'll salivate. Behind those are memories of past acts or attachments, remembered wants and desires. These have no form, and pass quickly if not paid attention to. So wanting, or desire just happens. Most often when it comes up, if I pay attention, it's kind of a surprise.

It's an interesting time of year for me. I am a lifelong Texas Longhorn fan, and big Dallas Cowboy supporter. It's interesting to observe this, the passion for my teams. It's not as personal as it used to be when I was younger. But in situations like this, it's MY team, or politically, MY candidate, MY nation. And it all feels a little insane. Sports a little less so, because after all, it IS a game. I'm wondering how all this will feel as the ME disappears... (I know there is only ever NOW...)

k"]And I know it's the desire to enhance the fictional "me."[/qu[quote="Ricote] Is that true? Who and what knows this? How is this known? Or is it just an assumption?

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Honestly it's an intellectual knowing. Who knows is the "I" that seems real to me. What is that "I"? A long term habit of identification of thought and feeling as "me." It is not known, it IS only an assumption.

Inviting confusion, and asking it to reveal what it has to show me. ( A friend used to say many years ago "Paradox and confusion are guardians at the gate."

Thank you again,

Rick