sparkling eternity?

[toggppbs10]

you say: "There are aspects and consequences, this could be nice to see.
Is there border/separation felt between world, things, body/self or is it all one?"

when i sit still and remember to just be with direct experience then the barrier between me and the outside seems less solid but at the centre of me, sometimes there still occurs tension which i seem to identify with and which seems quite separate from outside. there is a sort of oneness of everything but its not really different, its more that everything seems less solid.

i'm not sure this way of seeing is really maintained when i am moving about or interacting with people.

there still seems some separation (though perhaps a bit less).

You ask "...what is different, how does it feel?
What is good, what is just as is, what looks not so good?"

when i am (or at least seem to be) in direct experience it feels still and open. it is not completely new. sometimes i have had this experience with particular Buddhist practices in the past. what seems different though is less (though not zero) judgement of thoughts, less active disregarding, particularly of the thought "is this it / am i doing it right?"

what appears good is that there seems to be less striving to do/attain / achieve something in these moments but that also feels quite unusual, maybe a little awkward. as i haven't engaged in a task involving heavy use of the intellect while in this state its still difficult to imagine how this might occur.

in a way everything is just as is.

seemingly not so good is that i see how scattered my attention is, how easily distracted, how completely unfocused. when in direct experience, of course this doesn't bother me. i do get thoughts like - what a mess my mind must be in! but right now i'm not actually troubled by them.

half way through writing this email, i answered the doorbell and (contrary to what i wrote earlier) interacted with someone in a way that did seem much more open than normal.

[0kay]

Well done, this is all ok.
Take your time when it feels like too much tension or sorrows, hold on for a sec and watch them passing by.

Let us have a look for more complex thoughts and beliefs. As you know thoughts can refer to real things like hand, table, neighbour. Other thoughts try to refer to things you cannot find in reality like Spiderman, Marilyn Monroe, flux compensators or hoverboards. Other thoughts try to refer to things bigger than one piece like university, internet or subway.

Let us make a small exercise in looking for choosing, control and responsibility when there is direct experience:

Take five small, lightweight pieces like paperballs or coins. Throw them up with one hand.
Catch some of them with one hand.

Did an i choosing where things were thrown, when there were thrown?
Did an i control the hand, steps and moving head, eye movement?
What is responsible for things laying on the floor?

[toggppbs10]

Did an i [choose] where things were thrown?

no. it just happened

When [they] were thrown?

no. it just happened

Did an i control the hand, steps and moving head, eye movement?

no. it all just happened

What/who is responsible for things [lying] on the floor?

You are! Only joking! in direct experience its clear that nobody is responsible. this is a good exercise. i saw clearly that there is no choosing, no control, no responsibility. yet i still have this habitual assumption (in this case after the event, usually also at the time) which assumes "i" could have chosen/acted differently. and this even though i have very much experienced that it is impossible.

[0kay]

Excellent. Let's look at all of this from a slightly different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

[toggppbs10]

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

sensual experience - seeing, hearing, smelling, touching/feeling (body + emotions) sensations including attachment and aversion and thoughts all still appear. ie pretty much everything!

What experiences?

don't know, its muddy. like its just a mass of experience. its not that i can directly see no experiencer... more like its muddy and i can't tell if there's one.

What thinks?

(this seems easier to catch)

thoughts appear, nobody thinks them but there is still somehow a witness to the process (not caught up in the process) and then a witness to the witness and so on. impossible to pin down.

What does?

nothing. nobody. doing just happens. much of it seemingly spontaneous though sometimes it looks like its specifically driven by thoughts (which of course don't seem to have a thinker)

What is aware?

i want to say "what always was." its like the thing thats aware is not a thing but more a feeling of total contentedness or total completeness.

[0kay]

Yes, thank you.

thoughts appear, nobody thinks them but there is still somehow a witness to the process (not caught up in the process) and then a witness to the witness and so on. impossible to pin down.

Is there a higher self or a secret about a higher self hidden somewhere in more than thoughts?

Take a look at watcher-sensations in direct experience. Is something like what you've explained a continuous living entity, controlling, choosing, being responsible for something? Is there a belief in these sensations, what is the belief about them?

[toggppbs10]

"Is there a higher self or a secret about a higher self hidden somewhere in more than thoughts?"

well, as mentioned when i look with direct experience at awareness, i get flickers of contentedness/ completeness but i wouldn't describe this as a self, higher or otherwise. so no, not that i can find.

"Take a look at watcher-sensations in direct experience. Is something like what you've explained a continuous living entity, controlling, choosing, being responsible for something? Is there a belief in these sensations, what is the belief about them?"

watcher sensations seem to arise either as contented completeness as described when i look at the awareness itself or else as a basic opposition when in the context of something else (like a thought). in this second type, the watcher sensations are defined precisely by being not whatever they are watching. either way - definitely not living, controlling, choosing, responsible.

yes there are thoughts about the sensations which (if not in direct experience) constitute a belief...

right now while typing this my belief is that the 1st type of watcher sensations are good and the second type are a barrier that causes duality.

[0kay]

Are they continuously or do they come and go?
How important are these watcher-sensations?
Thoughts and feelings about separation, are they when it is relaxed or when in busy?
Is there a oneness including direct experience, thoughts and watching when relaxed or is there something separated? If so, look at this.

[toggppbs10]

Are they continuously [continuous] or do they come and go?

the contented, whole awareness sensation is only sustained briefly in my experience. it dissolves when grasped at.
the watcher sensations (like a kind of openness - not the thing being watched) seem to dissolve as soon as they are noticed... ie as soon as they are turned into a thing, they change...

so... watcher sensations are not continuous.

How important are these watcher-sensations?

No more important than any other sensations.

Thoughts and feelings about separation, are they when it is relaxed or when busy?

strange, it seems very difficult to compare different situations from direct experience. i can't seem to answer this question satisfactorily. should i keep trying?

Is there a oneness including direct experience, thoughts and watching when relaxed or is there something separated? If so, look at this.

maybe there is a sort of oneness, or more a lack of distinct separation... i can't really find something separate to look at. things i think might be separate turn out not to be on close inspection. including (many) thoughts of "self" doubt re ability to do this investigation properly.

(thanks for persisting with me - from a regular relative perspective, i am not finding this process easy!)

hx

[0kay]

Thank you for all hints to brush up my english :)

Are they continuously [continuous] or do they come and go?

the contented, whole awareness sensation is only sustained briefly in my experience. it dissolves when grasped at.
the watcher sensations (like a kind of openness - not the thing being watched) seem to dissolve as soon as they are noticed... ie as soon as they are turned into a thing, they change... so... watcher sensations are not continuous.

Yes. Do we need to know more about this? Do you believe in a hidden importance about this?

Thoughts and feelings about separation, are they when it is relaxed or when busy?

strange, it seems very difficult to compare different situations from direct experience. i can't seem to answer this question satisfactorily. should i keep trying?

No need, thank you. :)

Is there a oneness including direct experience, thoughts and watching when relaxed or is there something separated? If so, look at this.

maybe there is a sort of oneness, or more a lack of distinct separation... i can't really find something separate to look at. things i think might be separate turn out not to be on close inspection.

Good.

(thanks for persisting with me - from a regular relative perspective, i am not finding this process easy!)
hx

You are welcome. :)
Looking at things in direct experience is getting better every day.
There is a private message for you.

including (many) thoughts of "self" doubt re ability to do this investigation properly.

OK, how should we look for, from what point of view, what is missing?
Your search... What is missing, what should we look for next?

[toggppbs10]

you ask (re watcher sensations being non continuous): "Do we need to know more about this? Do you believe in a hidden importance [to] this?"

no, we don't need to know more but it wouldn't do any harm to keep observing the lack of continuity!

"how should we look, from what point of view, what is missing?
Your search... What is missing, what should we look for next?"

well, in direct experience there doesn't seem to be any "should"....

...but attachments and aversions remain and recur, even though they have been seen to support and be supported by a falsity. these ongoing (though perhaps ever so slightly faded) lies operate (in "my" case) in a world of deeply ingrained habit patterns which still work overtime to confirm the existence of a self. nobody is really listening to them... but maybe (a thought says) they need to be kept in direct experience until this too is utterly habitual. or maybe this just happens.. lets see.

In short... nothing is missing but not the end!

vielen dank!

hx

[0kay]

Sehr gerne, my pleasure.

... it wouldn't do any harm to keep observing the lack of continuity!

It looks good to me. Is there really a lack of continuity, in direct experience? What sense found it?
Who can freeze or change what is here, now?


well, in direct experience there doesn't seem to be any "should"....
Agree.


...but attachments and aversions remain and recur, even though they have been seen to support and be supported by a falsity. these ongoing (though perhaps ever so slightly faded) lies operate (in "my" case) in a world of deeply ingrained habit patterns which still work overtime to confirm the existence of a self.

The awakeneds guide, work on it. In short: See what happens and take small breaks. :)


nobody is really listening to them... but maybe (a thought says) they need to be kept in direct experience until this too is utterly habitual. ...
or maybe this just happens

Yes.

I´ll ask some more questions, just for validation what is. There is no need to answer immediately.
Take your time with the questions below and, as always, answer by looking at your experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Let me know if one or more of these questions needs further looking.

[0kay]

Hi,

let us look for some questions :)