sparkling eternity?

[toggppbs10]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
don't know exactly...basically i don't like to suffer and i'm keen to understand/experience the truth to the extent that such is possible. after a lengthy period of hedonistic escapism, i've been into sobriety and buddhism for the past 6 years. seems like a much more positive platform from which to understand what on earth is going on but i still very much experience myself as a separate self and suffer accordingly. as far as i can understand, you appear to offer a practical way of experiencing something different - possibly this is the truth that has so far eluded me. at the very least it sounds like an important step in the process of moving beyond suffering and helping others to do the same.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
1) to engage in a process which will lead to an abiding experience of no-self/non-duality

2) to be skillfully guided in this process by someone who unquestionably already experiences life from this perspective.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
seeking and inquiry has been my main focus for the past 6 years. I've experimented with 12 step programmes, christianity, life coaching, reiki, goenka vipassana and therevadan buddhism in the thai tradition. In the past 3 years i've also spent 10 months in Tibet (teaching English in a school) with good access to the local rinpoche and 18 months (teaching English to monks) in a Tibetan Buddhist monastery in North India. Tibetan Mahayana (+ Vajrayana) Buddhism has been the principle recent influence on my inquiry. I've made various attempts at related practices inc shamatha meditation, tantric visualisation and dzogchen; I've done a few prostrations, met a few gurus, received various transmissions; chanted a few mantras; visited a few holy places and read a lot of dharma books. i attended a james low weekend dzogchen retreat a few weeks ago.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). :
11

[0kay]

Hi, i´m 0kay.

One of the guide, all of them have seen oneness.
We are not in a process, things happen by themself. Come and go. Here, now.

Here, now is no need for beliefs, religions or decisions about good or bad, things just happen.
A sweet surrender :)

In this thread we see what happens to you here, now.

I´m german but guiding in englisch is ok with me. If something is unclear or needs explanation please ask.


Is there an i what can be enlighted?
Look inside, look around. What is, what is found, is there an i?

[toggppbs10]

Hi 0kay,

thanks for taking the time to help me! if you don't mind, while you are pointing me towards liberation, i will point out where your English can be improved which might help you help more people!

You ask "Is there an i what can be enlighted?" [Is there an I that can be enlightened?]

The short answer is - No.

Intellectually, I accept the philosophical argument that there can't be an I. I have also had fleeting glimpses when meditating and also when not meditating of experiencing no I. In particular by seeing very briefly that there was no I thinking "my" thoughts. These experiences did not last more than a few seconds but because of them I am completely convinced that there is no I that can be enlightened. HOWEVER... 99.99999% of the time there is still the experience of an I and that I spends quite a lot of its time thinking about how it might get enlightened!

It also seems important to say that whilst I understand that if there is no I then there must also be no absence of I, this second part (the absence of the absence of I) is not something I have experienced. ie Even in my fleeting moments of seeing, there was always a witness (like another I seeing that there was no I producing the thoughts). Maybe this is the part that "you" have realised, that "i" have not?

So the smart-ass answer is: No, but also there isn't not an I which can be enlightened. But from my perspective this is purely theoretical.

Over the past few months i felt in a really good space: open, connected, loving, compassionate, positive, seemingly able to deal with anything... i thought perhaps i had made some kind of breakthrough... but recently, in the last few days, this has changed abruptly. i feel oppressed, ignorant, worried, disconnected and fearful. there is very little space, negative thoughts are running rampant and I don't feel like interacting with the world. I see now that there was no real breakthrough. The last few months were still all about me - I feel good. I am compassionate. I can deal with anything. Sadly all these states of being that i am attached to were all totally impermanent. Hopefully the silver lining to my new found suffering is the motivation to really really look at what is going on...

Look inside, look around. What is, what is found, is there an i?

Inside: What is? Thoughts (mainly negative right now, almost all related to me - criticising past actions, memories of advice i've ignored, worrying about the future, thinking what might have been, trying to convince myself things are okay, hope, fear, constantly moving) sensations (energy -whatever that is - moving around my body, collecting around my head, mild headache, feeding the thoughts and worries or vice-versa) emotions (feeling stupid, sad, disconnected and a lot of fear - fear that it will always be like this, that its my fault, that i could have hung onto those positive thoughts and feelings if only i'd done something different).

Yes, inside is a jumbled mass of suffering and it all comes from being attached to me and my experience being a particular way. And the thought comes... yes but i know this, its just basic Buddhist theory. I understand it and understanding it doesn't make any difference. I'm still suffering. But that's just a thought. I is just a thought. And its just a thought that I is just a thought. But no liberation, no relief, not even the fleeting relief i remember from before!

What is found? On close examination, no thing is found inside or outside that can't be broken down into other things. So things appear but have no true existence. everything changes except possibly fundamental space but even that only exists relative to the idea of not space.

is there an I? No - of course I can't find an enduring separate I. But there is an experience of I. More than anything I seems to be just a persistent, recurring idea, a habit or series of thoughts and memories and right now some sensations that i have labelled a mild headache.

If anything the situation feels a little more hopeless after typing the above. Maybe that has even brought a touch of relief!!

yours,

Hx

[0kay]

Thank you for the long description what happens in mind and, somehow, to the body after believing thoughts, feelings and other sensations.

Here in LU we use Direct Experience as a very effective tool for proving. Sometimes thoughts and feelings are misleading, unclear or wrong in a more complex way.

Have an eye for thoughts and feelings.
Things could be seen and judged in different ways, less good or more good: Hot chili, metal music, loosing illusions about an I.

Thoughts about loosing the illusion. Does it feel like fear or does it feel like an exciting adventure?
Take a look at these feelings. Are they really different, how much different?

[toggppbs10]

Thanks 0kay...

You say: "Thoughts about loosing [losing] the illusion. Does it feel like fear or does it feel like an exciting adventure?
Take a look at these feelings. Are they really different, how much different?"

when i think about losing the illusion at first i feel nothing. no tangible feelings, just more thoughts. specifically the thought - i don't even have any feelings.

so then i looked right at the feeling of not having any feelings and went behind that. there i experienced the symptoms of being acutely afraid - fast breathing, heart beating, almost screaming. but i wasn't actually afraid. i was just watching the symptoms. i'm not sure whether this was truly a reaction to the thought about losing the illusion or just some unrelated suppressed emotion. i don't know how to tell.

i tried the same again, just telling myself there would be no more I. this time the reaction was immediate - like a scream of No. An objection. Total resistance. Maybe as much anger as fear.

i don't know if i'm doing the right thing here. i didn't actually feel anything like the feeling of going on an exciting adventure.

do you mean i should try thinking about losing the illusion as both the fear of losing control and having an adventure at the same time? if so i can do that and see that the feelings are essentially the same but it is not the same as the acute fear that came up initially.

In conclusion: It feels like extreme fear, very different from the mild fear of an exciting adventure (unless the extreme fear is something totally separate that i have accessed accidentally).

[0kay]

Great, you did much looking.
Normally we look for what is here-now and write it down, then the next question is following.
You did this looking in direct experience with

when i think about losing the illusion at first i feel nothing. no tangible feelings, just more thoughts. specifically the thought - i don't even have any feelings.

Good.

The following was looking in possible thoughts an feelings, not needed.
If this thoughts and feelings are much disturbing we can look for them, you may tell when it looks like fear and resistance for longer than minutes. Otherwise we continue:

When there is looking in Direct Experience here-now, just looking what senses bring.
In this moment, is there a need to change anything or is it just being?

In opposite... What do thoughts tell about The Gate? What is needed, what will be different after seeing?

[toggppbs10]

thanks again 0kay,

looking at direct experience, at what the senses bring, in this moment...

first time i tried (though hardly noticeable) there was a fleeting moment of just being with the sensations and the experience.
then thoughts about the sensations + me - (eg: "this is uncomfortable, i shouldn't feel like this. i need to do something to change this feeling")
then restlessness, frustration.

next time i tried, i just fell asleep.

now when i try i'm hampered immediately by thoughts which say - the strong sensations i am feeling are preventing all possibility of just being - i need to change something before this will work.

yo ask: "What do thoughts tell about The Gate? What is needed, what will be different after seeing?"

if i intentionally think about "the gate" i think - due to excessive unskillful meditation efforts recently i am suffering from imbalanced prana (what the tibetans call "lung"); i think this will have to change before i can go through the gate because it is too much of a distraction from just being. then i think - this seems very true but it is just a story - probably if i was doing this 2 weeks ago when i didn't have this problem, there would be a different but equally insurmountable difficulty that i would tell myself about!

if i intentionally think about what will be different after seeing - i think nothing will actually be different but there will be no experience of "me" trying to get somewhere.

[0kay]

thanks again 0kay,

You are welcome :)

looking at direct experience, at what the senses bring, in this moment...

first time i tried (though hardly noticeable) there was a fleeting moment of just being with the sensations and the experience.

Great. No one expects more of this.

then thoughts about the sensations + me - (eg: "this is uncomfortable, i shouldn't feel like this. i need to do something to change this feeling")
then restlessness, frustration.

Yes, thoughts and feelings show up.

next time i tried, i just fell asleep.

This is ok, too.

now when i try i'm hampered immediately by thoughts which say - the strong sensations i am feeling are preventing all possibility of just being - i need to change something before this will work.

Thoughts, yes. Sometimes we have thoughts about Santa Clause, Batman, a flying spaghetti monster. This causes no suffer, we know that they are unreal. Thoughts about being not able or not worthy now, are they right? Do you believe it? Look in direct experince. Is it ok as is, for this moment, here now?

yo ask: "What do thoughts tell about The Gate? What is needed, what will be different after seeing?"

if i intentionally think about "the gate" i think - due to excessive unskillful meditation efforts recently i am suffering from imbalanced prana (what the tibetans call "lung"); i think this will have to change before i can go through the gate because it is too much of a distraction from just being. then i think - this seems very true but it is just a story - probably if i was doing this 2 weeks ago when i didn't have this problem, there would be a different but equally insurmountable difficulty that i would tell myself about!

if i intentionally think about what will be different after seeing - i think nothing will actually be different but there will be no experience of "me" trying to get somewhere.

Are there any signs in Direct Experience, here, now, that these thoughts are right?

[toggppbs10]

Thoughts about being not able or not worthy now, are they right?

I looked. There is no direct evidence that these thoughts are right. In fact, evidence of momentary "just being" suggests otherwise.

Do you believe it [the thoughts]?

well, thanks to your reminder, right-now, i don't believe the thought that says "i am not able." but i am in danger of believing the thought that says "i am able!" maybe this is just as much of a barrier?

Look in direct experience. Is it ok as is, for this moment, here now?

its ok. very briefly. then i start believing thoughts about how the uncomfortable sensations might affect me for ages!

Are there any signs in Direct Experience, here, now, that these thoughts [about imbalanced prana & about what its like beyond the gate] are right?

The direct experience of ongoing mild headache / energy sensations around my head is proof only of energy sensations appearing here-now - not of the validity of the thoughts. Re beyond the gate there is no sustained direct experience so no - in truth these thoughts are not relating to direct experience here and now.

[0kay]

Thoughts about being not able or not worthy now, are they right?

I looked. There is no direct evidence that these thoughts are right. In fact, evidence of momentary "just being" suggests otherwise.

Good

Do you believe it [the thoughts]?

well, thanks to your reminder, right-now, i don't believe the thought that says "i am not able."

Good

but i am in danger of believing the thought that says "i am able!" maybe this is just as much of a barrier?

Judging thoughts could be a barrier for passing the gate?
So direct experience without judging thoughts could be an entry? :)

Look in direct experience. Is it ok as is, for this moment, here now?

its ok. very briefly.

How good!

then i start believing thoughts about how the uncomfortable sensations might affect me for ages!

Again we should look for this in direct experience, if there is an evidence for this thoughts.

Are there any signs in Direct Experience, here, now, that these thoughts [about imbalanced prana & about what its like beyond the gate] are right?

The direct experience of ongoing mild headache / energy sensations around my head is proof only of energy sensations appearing here-now - not of the validity of the thoughts.

Energy sensations and seeing in mind is not so unusual. But we do not need to have an eye for this here. I have seen by myself that looking for these could be distracting:
There are five body senses we can use. This is what Direct Ecperience refers to. In buddhism thoughts are similar to senses, but as we can see in direct experience thoughts are not equal to what body senses bring. Thoughts can be wrong very easy.
They can appear as text, pictures, films or voices about Santa Clause, energy sensations, Batman, thoughts about believing or disregarding, vampires or obstacles in seeing the truth.

Re beyond the gate there is no sustained direct experience...

Body senses deliver changing sensations, situations change.
What happens: Here a ventilating fan hums, the keyboard clicks. Fingers move, pause. Breathing in, breathing out.
Look for direct experience and write a sentence, what happens.

Where is the difference between here-now and after the gate?

so no - in truth these thoughts are not relating to direct experience here and now.

[toggppbs10]

You say: "Thoughts can be wrong very easy. [easily]
They can appear as text, pictures, films or voices about Santa Clause, energy sensations, Batman, thoughts about believing or disregarding, vampires or obstacles in seeing the truth."

I'm not clear on this. are you saying that for the purposes of this investigation the energy sensations I am feeling in my head should be classified as thoughts rather than as bodily sensations/touch (1 of the five senses)?

ie in this case the "thought about the sensation" and the "sensation itself" are the same thing???

You say: Look for direct experience and write a sentence, what happens.

birds chatter, typing, nose itching, energy on top of head, sticky energy on side, cool laptop on heel of hand, fuzzy feeling on face, breathing, heart, throat, a deeper breath, picture on the wall, of a dog, a thought (i've never looked properly at that picture before) another thought (wasn't i thinking before now?) (i must've been) (must've missed it ... me... judgement, chain of thoughts has kicked in, etc)

i'll try again

bird outside window eating a seed, typing, reflection of face in black screen, thought (looking old) thought (just a thought) an orange, breathing, reading, energy around temples, thought (is this a thought or a sensations) breathing, feeling (contentment) headache, thought (still contentment) thought (oh, maybe i shouldn't be typing the thoughts).

and again (omitting thoughts, only noting direct experience):

yellow flowers, typing, my thumb, breath, sound of chopping and sizzling, and scraping, candle, dog, picture , scraping, white flowers, the hair inside my nose, relaxing, heart, listening to conversation.

what happens?

writing the sentence seemed to help me stay focused on direct attention. it felt oddly relaxing. when observing body parts i still described them as "my thumb, my nose" but there was also an awareness that this was happening... yes, there was an awareness of the labelling process generally and also of the labelling of parts attached to me. i could kind of witness the process.

Where is the difference between here-now and after the gate?

how could i know?

[0kay]

...in this case the "thought about the sensation" and the "sensation itself" are the same thing???

My experience here-now: No need to see energys nor to disregard this.
Body senses. Thoughts. Maybe energies.

You say: Look for direct experience and write a sentence, what happens.

birds chatter, typing, nose itching, energy on top of head, sticky energy on side, cool laptop on heel of hand, fuzzy feeling on face, breathing, heart, throat, a deeper breath, picture on the wall, of a dog, a thought (i've never looked properly at that picture before) another thought (wasn't i thinking before now?) (i must've been) (must've missed it ... me... judgement, chain of thoughts has kicked in, etc)

i'll try again

bird outside window eating a seed, typing, reflection of face in black screen, thought (looking old) thought (just a thought) an orange, breathing, reading, energy around temples, thought (is this a thought or a sensations) breathing, feeling (contentment) headache, thought (still contentment) thought (oh, maybe i shouldn't be typing the thoughts).

No disregarding happens.

and again (omitting thoughts, only noting direct experience):

yellow flowers, typing, my thumb, breath, sound of chopping and sizzling, and scraping, candle, dog, picture , scraping, white flowers, the hair inside my nose, relaxing, heart, listening to conversation.

what happens?

writing the sentence seemed to help me stay focused on direct attention. it felt oddly relaxing. when observing body parts i still described them as "my thumb, my nose" but there was also an awareness that this was happening... yes, there was an awareness of the labelling process generally and also of the labelling of parts attached to me. i could kind of witness the process.

Where is the difference between here-now and after the gate?

how could i know?

Look in direct experience. Is there a need to know more?
What else is needed than this, here-now?

[toggppbs10]

Look in direct experience. Is there a need to know more?

no

What else is needed than this, here-now?

nothing

feels a bit sad. no smiling or laughing.

[0kay]

This was much and well done.

There are aspects and consequences, this could be nice to see.
Is there border/separation felt between world, things, body/self or is it all one?

Look around for a while. Take your time and then tell what is different, how does it feel?
What is good, what is just as is, what looks not so good?

10:30pm, thoughts slow down.
Tomorrow we will look around and see what else comes up. :)
Good night.

[toggppbs10]

thank you 0kay.

i will take time and answer your questions tomorrow.

i have been resting in an unfamiliar state since my previous post. perhaps i am somehow using a little more direct experience that before. i feel very quiet and my breathing seems unusually calm.

thank you again for all your help.

gute nacht.

h.