Thread for Monja Gitana

[Mad biker]

But I know there are no thoughts because I experience lots of thoughts throughout the day. MG

Mmm, I am not quite with you. Just give me that last line again. Perhaps you accidentally missed a word or two out?

Unless you are being strictly Diamond Sutra in which case yes, I can go with you in that vein, but I still need expansion from you for that to happen!

[Monja gitana]

Sorry I did miss out a word. It was meant to read.........but I know there are not no thoughts because Im aware of thoughts coming and going. That's about all I can say. MG

[Mad biker]

OK great, that is just grand, More from me later.

[Mad biker]

OK now do your six breaths just to arrive all nice and cozy.

Observe thought closely now.
Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process - surely it is obvious that you cannot claim to be controlling the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise unless can you somehow instigate them beforehand.

Is it not true to say that thoughts cannot be cognised until after they are finished, that thoughts are ALWAYS about the past, because by the time it can be identified as a 'thought'... it is over?

Simply sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 15 minutes in Direct Experience. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts. Right?

Do you ever have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

Observe a thought. Notice that you didn’t actually do anything in order to make that thought appear. Notice also that when a thought appears, you are never given an option to avoid that thought. Every thought appears spontaneously without anyone’s permission. Is this true Gitana?

[Monja gitana]

Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, have been out all day.

I'm lying on my bed watching thoughts arise and pass and noticing the gaps in between. I'm an observer of thoughts. Its like watching a movie. I've got no idea what's going to come up next. I can't make a prediction. No I can't avoid a thought. Some of them though are a bit half hearted and not very clear, like they start and then petter out before I know what they are on about. A bit of a jumble. I'm not in control of my thoughts.
Most of the thoughts are quite trivial and bland. Yes I have unpleasant thoughts and I would prefer not to have them but I can't choose the thoughts that appear. Feels like a relief. Usually I give myself a hard time for having a bad thought. Its what I do with the thought, which is usually go in to a drama, that causes the dukkha. MG

[Mad biker]

Really first class observation here:

Some of them though are a bit half hearted and not very clear, like they start and then petter out before I know what they are on about. A bit of a jumble. I'm not in control of my thoughts.

Let's take a look at the following quote in a bit more detail:

Yes I have unpleasant thoughts and I would prefer not to have them but I can't choose the thoughts that appear. Feels like a relief. Usually I give myself a hard time for having a bad thought. Its what I do with the thought, which is usually go in to a drama, that causes the dukkha.

YES!

I like you saying "Feels like a relief" what I am about to propose is maybe going to sound bad but just stay with me here and just let go into total relaxation when I tell you that you are just not going into it ENOUGH, or rather you have not been going into it in the RIGHT kind of way!

Take your six nice wee kindly breaths first
Take a look at this expansion of the territory in 15 minutes from Francis Lucille:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27HV4Rf ... FMvpjWLtoQ

[Mad biker]

Remember that vibe of goodwill with which Rumi asks unwanted mental/emotional events into his 'home'?
That is the kind of vibe we are looking for here.
This is all looking really good BTW.
Mbx

[Monja gitana]

I get you when you say I'm not going in to it enough. I think its the medium of writing, never has been a strong point of mine.
I watched the video and then just sat for about half an hour, listening to sounds, looking around the room and out the window and watching thoughts coming and going. I noticed a thought wanting a juicy thought that I knew would spin me off in to stories or make me upset just so I could see how I would handle it. Would I be able to invite it in and just observe it? I felt disappointed when I didn't have one. But I felt content and absorbed being open to what was going on around me through my senses.

Could be going off on a tangent here but I've had an interesting afternoon and so will share it with you. After sitting in my room I went and sat with my partners Dad in the sitting room. I'm staying at his house for a week and have felt a bit of fear when I'm around him. I got him talking about his childhood during the war which was very interesting. I felt present and engaged in the conversation and looked out for any traces of fear but non was there. I was open and relaxed. Then some Polish relatives arrived for lunch and I couldn't join in much with the conversation because I don't speak the language. Again I stayed open and relaxed. I witnessed the odd thought of wanting to escape to my room but just observed it and managed to just be at the dining table and relax and be present to whatever was presenting itself.

Something else happened after that which was quite magical but too long winded to describe. When the relatives left my partners Mum said that I had made people relax and had had a positive effect on the afternoon. I'm sure it was because I remained open,present and relaxed.

Anyway just thought I'd share that with you because it felt significant to me. MG

[Mad biker]

Naw, when I said:

you are just not going into it ENOUGH, or rather you have not been going into it in the RIGHT kind of way!

it was not a reference to your writing (more of which below) it was simply me drawing attention to a perfectly common thing that we all sometimes do with our cognitive faculty, and I said this by way of introduction to Francis Lucille's smashing wee film.

Your writing has been so good that you had me sitting around the table there back in the People's Republic where I have spent a bit of time before the Wall came down. It makes complete sense what your-one's mother said about the effect you had, as a vast percentage of our communication is non-verbal and you would have seemed quite self-contained and relatively contented under the circs.

I am very glad indeed that you told me as it gives me the confidence that you and I really CAN do do this thing together while you are out on the road. A bit like the Traveling Salesman I mentioned previously. A world where the busy Barca soundscape is replaced by a tractor-punctuated Polish Pastoral, and the Spanish table talk you don't always catch has been replaced by a table talk you have no hope of getting!
More from me later.
Mb

[Mad biker]

People often think that thoughts are who they really are, that their their thoughts are really their self'
What do you think?

I noticed a thought wanting a juicy thought that I knew would spin me off in to stories or make me upset just so I could see how I would handle it. Would I be able to invite it in and just observe it?

This is a great exercise why not do some more of it and tell me what happens?

[Monja gitana]

It was a bit difficult to conjure up a juicy thought, but I managed one. I allowed it to be there and watched it. It was more like a fantasy than a thought, I was observing a scenario. I felt separate from it, not involved. Normally that scenario would make me really upset and I'd be overwhelmed by it and totally caught up with it.

No, thoughts aren't me. Sorry, I dont know what else to say.

I'm leaving the land of Polish tractors tomorrow and heading to the UK for a couple of weeks. Will try and post someth8ng tomorrow morning. MG

[Mad biker]

OK great. Get back to me in the morning.

[Monja gitana]

Lying on my bed here in the Polish countryside for the last time. Listening to the birds outside, looking at the light in the room, feeling the slight churn in my stomach because I don't want to leave the peace and quiet of the country. Allowing everything in. When I don't resist I feel softer, less tense. Watching thoughts arising and passing. If I just observe them, not tense up around them or push them away they don't overwhelm me. MG

[Mad biker]

Are you safely settled in the UK now?

Allowing everything in. When I don't resist I feel softer, less tense. Watching thoughts arising and passing. If I just observe them, not tense up around them or push them away they don't overwhelm me.

Mmm!

Although being unsettled is fine too!
Mb

[Monja gitana]

Yep Im in the UK now.