Thread for Monja Gitana

[Mad biker]

Hi Monja Gitana, Here is your new thread for posting to me. Great to have you here, Mad Biker

[Monja gitana]

Hi mad biker, Im ready to go.

[Mad biker]

Morning Monja!
OK, lets get the formalities out of the way :

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we
shall begin.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

[Monja gitana]

Buenos dias thanks for that Ill read later as about to go out and then get back to you. MG

[Monja gitana]

Hi MB Have read the above but couldnt open the link to the quote function. MG

[Mad biker]

I apologise about the quote function Monja.

All I can remember right now is that I used to do something completely different from the site instructions which worked OK, but right now I cannot remember what it was (!)

I will get back to you about that when I have figured it out. Meanwhile can I just ask you to cut and paste or quote long-hand as I will be doing 'til I get it figured out?

Also a couple of very mundane points...

1. You might find it helpful to click the 'subscribe topic' link at the bottom of the page, so you know when I post a reply
2. The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send


Please could you introduce yourself a little, particularly:

* what brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
* what do you hope to get out of the journey?
* what would you expect it to be like if you are successful?
Be as expansive as you want, hey just cut loose! But give me fully written, complete sentences in plain English with no abbreviations and little, or better still, no slang terms or figures of speech, as the all of the latter can impede comprehension. For the same reason it can be worth leaving aside idiosyncratic humour. I like a laugh like the best of them but the limitations of this medium are such that all of the above can slow things down in the comprehension department!
No let's go!
With much warmth.
Mb

[Monja gitana]

Hi MB,

Firstly just to let you know I'm not great with technology. Sorry about that!

What brings me to Liberation Unleashed is curiosity and feeling stuck in my practice. Personally its been a tough year and a half. I moved to Spain, my boyfriend was unfaithful the week before I moved, I don't have a way of earning a living and I don't speak the language. I basically feel like I'm dangling off the edge of a cliff. I've been going round and round in circles, feeling betrayed, hurt, angry, hysterical at times and stuck in a sense of me-ness. I have been over indentifying with I, I'm so hurt etc etc. There have been some moments of clarity but I need some input and guidance to help me investigate more deeply.

What I hope to get out of the journey is relief. If I was successful I would expect to be more lighter, open, loving.

Sorry, I'm not great at writing down my thoughts. I tend to feel my way through things, not with words.

Thanks for being up for guiding me.

MG

[Mad biker]

OK Monja,
That sure sounds like a choppy time you have been having!

I'd been waiting for you to respond to my previous routine preliminary blurb so do get back to me on that stuff, OK?

The quote function is explained at the very top of the Guiding Area in a post by Damon Kamda.
Mb

[Monja gitana]

OK Monja,
That sure sounds like a choppy time you have been having!

I'd been waiting for you to respond to my previous routine preliminary blurb so do get back to me on that stuff, OK?

The quote function is explained at the very top of the Guiding Area in a post by Damon Kamda.
Mb

Hi MB, Ive read the prelimenary stuff and agree to those terms. Hope Ive got the quote function right. MG

[Mad biker]

That is just great.
Yes, relationships can be a big deal and that can be handy as an opener. Handy because it is really very current in a way that it usually isn't when we are sitting in a Buddhism class listening to the person speaking at the front of the room.

I know you are an experienced Buddhist (me too BTW) but just allow me to move in on this real slow and ask you to open up into Beginners Mind.

OK there is that marked element of Unsatisfactoriness there with this relationship stuff which can be a useful way forward here: Remember that Unsatisfactoriness ‘dukkha’ has a wide range of meanings or implications. It can include: strong mental pain and suffering, depression, despair etc. ennui, ‘existential angst’, ‘meaninglessness’, the sense that something is lacking, that nothing seems to quite satisfy, that life is ok-ish but uncomfortable (the ‘ill-fitting chariot wheel’), fear of not getting what we want, of losing what we value, and so on.

Unsatisfactoriness is also a ‘mark’ of phenomenal existence (the skandhas) in general insofar as nothing phenomenal lasts long enough to be a source of the satisfaction that the mind infected by the separate ‘I’ belief desires. Dukkha in this sense is not just related to experiences that we regard as 'dukkhaful'. We’re looking for insight these 'dukkhaful experiences', and also into the omnipresent shadow of dukkha inherent in all ‘conditioned experience’.

Also remember the ‘two arrows’ teaching – ‘the cessation of dukkha’ refers to the ending of the mental-emotional suffering (‘second arrow suffering’) that occurs because self-view is implicit in how the organism acts-reacts to surrounding conditions. ‘First arrow suffering’ is the immediate experience of pain, illness, loss, etc. (These relate to the three kinds of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha is related to first arrow, viparinama-dukkha to second arrow and sankhara-dukkha to self-view as the underlying basis of dukkha.)

Getting unsatisfactoriness in view: write or type now, without bothering much about spelling and punctuation, as many as possible of the ways as you can see ‘second arrow’ unsatisfactoriness manifesting as a 'result' of this relationship having gone the way it has. Be honest with yourself (You don’t need to share this with me if you prefer, and I definitely do not need to hear it. Instead you can do that exercise in private but for the benefit of our work here just replace that relationship item with another 'source' of dukkha and reply to me with your responses to that example instead).

Or if you want, do two lists, one of your direct experiences of ‘primary suffering’ and one of ‘secondary suffering’

Sit with awareness of the unsatisfactoriness that is ‘here’ now. The direct experience and sense of it.

Where is it happening?

What form is it taking?

[Mad biker]

How are you doin Gitana?
Did you get my post on the 10th?
Mb

[Monja gitana]

Hi MB, I wrote a reply this morning but something happened in the sending and it got lost which was very frustrating. I know its me and technology. Would it be ok with you to send again by the quick reply instead of quote function or send you an email? Sorry about this. MG

[Mad biker]

Yeah just send it again via quick reply.
BTW I always 'save' before sending in case the machinery makes it disappear as sometimes happens!
(I am utter garbage with computers too and am not looking forward to re-learning the 'quote function' either. I used to be a real gunslinger with it for most of the last year, but I cannot remember how to use it now and I just cannot comprehend the explanation at the top of the page, but I will get there!!!)

[Monja gitana]

Thanks. Well this morning I was right in second arrow stuff but now it has passed so I will try and get in touch with what went on, easy really as it's generally the same reaction.

I was listening to my partner discussing with his father the possibility of buying a flat in Barcelona for him and the other guys he currently lives with. This pushed my buttons because I thought we would live together when I moved to Barcelona and now he has decided that its not what he wants to do (Ive known this for some months). My stomach was churning, I felt upset and tearful and I left the room. I felt abandoned, not good enough and confused. I sat on the bed and managed to stay with the physical sensations and didn't get too caught up in the stories.

Second arrow in regards to the relationship is generally around not being good enough, I've never been good enough and men always end up leaving me. I feel contracted and small.

[Mad biker]

OK that is all nice and clear for looking at!

But first I just want us to back up a bit.
I want to introduce you to a technical term that we will have recourse too throughout our dialogue:

'Direct Experience'

The mind can subtly ‘simulate’ experience and hoodwink us into believing that a thought or image about an experience is the same as the direct experience itself.

Before starting any experiential insight practice, it’s important to be clear – experientially – about the difference. This is actually very simple – the main thing is just to notice. This is not about making mental judgments such as ‘body good, mind bad’ … it’s merely about noticing the difference.

A fairly straightforward way of doing it is to notice the difference between the mental simulation and the direct experience of the five senses in turn. You may find it enough to do just one of these to get the point, but in any case, these observations needn’t take you very long. You can easily enough devise variants on what I've suggested, but don’t labour it if you’ve got the point. As the saying goes, it ain’t exactly rocket science!

Sit with your eyes open, look at what is appearing. Note this as a direct sense experience of seeing. Close your eyes and imagine the scene you were just looking at. Identify this as a mental activity – imaging. Repeat until you’re completely clear about the difference.

Now with hearing. If you’ve got a bell or some kind of musical instrument you could use that – or some music on a CD, for instance. Imagine the sound, then listen to the sound. Mental activity … direct experience. Know the difference, directly.

With body (tactile) sensations: try mentally imagining / naming ‘hand’, ‘foot’ and other parts of the body and then bring attention to the direct sensations of the part you’ve just named.

Notice the process: is it ‘hand’ … mental image of hand … actual sensations of hand? Or what? Or, try it by imagining lying down on the floor. Then lie down, feel the pressure/weight/sensations of contact with the floor. Or, imagine crossing your legs. Now cross them. Similarly, you could imagine walking, then walk, imagine pinching your skin, then pinch …

This is simply a matter of getting clear in experience that tactile experiences themselves are totally different to any kind of mental activity about a tactile experience.

If that’s not enough, you can also do something similar with smelling and tasting – have, say, a piece of fruit available (but far enough away that you can’t smell it). Now imagine the smell / taste of the fruit. Note this as ‘mental activity’. Now pick up the fruit and smell it, noting this as ‘direct experience’. Continue imagining, smelling and eating until you are completely clear about the difference.

I can recommend getting a slice of lemon handy then considering the 'thought of biting into that lemon' before experiencing the reality of actually doing so!

So do these exercises as necessary, write down your observations and email them to me.
If you get back to me by say 6pm GMT then I will get back to you again this evening addressing your last post more directly.