Akasha sees

[Akashalila]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We have a sense of self, but its not hat this is entirely untrue, but rather a deep misunderstanding of existence. We see boundaries and edges, that with closure inspection dissolve into process and continuity.

What are you looking for at LU?
Direct seeing of the profound space where existence flows. This course has been recommended by a friend who says it was profound for her, and I trust her opinion deeply. So I am looking for a way to see beyond what I know. I love your list of what LU is not! Very comprehensive.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That is to be seen but I expect some challenging conversations that ask me to dig deeper and look again. Maybe even some painful koans!! Encouragement is always good. And someone to help me pop the balloons of my delusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a practising Buddhist for 20 years although in recent years I have been a bit adrift after I left my tradition. So I have a good conceptual understanding and have experiences rarefied states

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello! I am a guide here and would be happy to work with you. Your description of expectations for the guiding feels wholesome and to the point to me.

1) It's great you have thoroughly read our "what this is not" documents. It's really important that this is not expected to be a replacement for psychological and practical inquiry and help, when that is needed. In fact, it is most safe to do this process when one is in a pretty grounded place, psychologically and practically. How does that meet you, what reactions come up?

2) Please look to what you take to be you in direct experience, i.e. not what you analyze to be you, but what you deeply experience as you. Tell me what you find.

3) What may I call you? Real or fictional/symbolic name - as you wish.

[Akashalila]

Hello Elad and thank you for taking this time to walk with me.

I agree, if always have felt that a true spiritual life does not began until you are basically a happy, emotionally healthy human being. I have done many, many years of work to grow and emerge from my issues. Now that I feel i can say that this is the case for me, so much energy has been freed up and life is not as bumpy as it use to be. Most of those bumps being my inner resistances!

As to what I deeply experience as me... thats a toughie. I feel more like a flavour. An expression in time of life flowing. I have a rather uncommon perspective as I have temporal lobe epilepsy which grants me the boon of a disrupted personal timeline. I dont have a strong sense of personal history like many I know. I forget a lot of my experiences. Those that survive are typically non-sequential. Like each event has been cut off a timeline and thrown into a bucket.So when i reflect on what I deeply experience as me, I don't look to history for that. I suppose what is there deeply when I look, is presence. Living presence in a flow of time.

I have a few mind games I like to play. One is to pretend I am an archeologist from the future or another species, walking as a human in this world. I marvel anew at things, and feel a sense of a different history. Another is to pretend this moment/experience is the only one I have ever had. Either played over and over for eternity, or I have suddenly sprung into being, but thinking I had been here all along. This amuses me endlessly! Keeps the moment fresh Each idea is just as likely to be true as my belief that I have been around in a chronological sequence of 54 years as a human on this planet blah blah.

Let me look again... what do I find. When I strip away sensation, thought, history, projection, a simple beingness remains. Empty but full. There is still a sense of emotion. A positivity - but is this just a good day? Maybe. Certainly during periods of depression this does not seem the case (although I dont suffer those anymore). I went through a period of a few years where I was completely destroyed (about 5 years ago now). Kali came and broke me down to dust, so that I could raise again, fresh. What was my sense of self then? Hard to say as it is only a memory. I do feel that I had an acute sense of self (suffering seems to thicken it up) but also a faith in the universe, but more interestingly a knowing that you cant truly break what isn't there. Mental breakdowns are a real thing that do real damage, so this is not 'God will ever give you anything you cant handle' (which I find a tad insulting for those of use that cant handle the terrible things that happen). And parts of me definitely broke, snapped, feel away. Some of my current behaviours and attitudes reflect this damage. So what is it that cannot break in a personhood? Flavour, presence, time/space. Hmm maybe.

You may call me Akasha or the full form, Akashalila. This is the name I took after the period of suffering and destruction exhausted itself. It means the Universe as the playground of Consciousness.

Looking forward to your response.
Akashalila

[Elad]

Dear Akasha,

Thank you for this rich message!

A lot has already been seen and is being lived. There has been a lot of maturation and discovery, and there is a discerning between opennesses/trust and sentimentality/wishful thinking - great! Also, there is clearly already a spirit of intuitive discovery and inquiry - very helpful! Let's focus in on where illusion of a separate self might still be held.

1) You identify the "presence" or "being" as the innermost "sense of self". Tune into this sense of presence and/or being again. Is there anything about it that says it is "you" rather then it just being "it"/"itself" ? Any evidence this presence or being is in any way equal to "you" ?

2) You speak about how in certain states (say depression) the sense of self might be different. Please try notice over the next day how the "sense of self" might change in different moments, say from being alone to being in interaction, or being concentrated versus daydreaming or being scattered. Don't try and create the difference or the direction of the exploration. Just explore it as different moments/situations present themselves. Then look at:

(a) Is anything found that is in fact consistently the self?
(b) Is the "sense of self" actually a self? Or just shifting beliefs, shifting thoughts, habitual and contextually triggered beliefs with no agent controlling, creating or owning any of them?

:)

[Akashalila]

Hello Elad
Presence as the innermost self - I dont think the presence is the innermost self. If I turn inward and examine the body gradually stripping away each input, and resist the very strong urge to identify with sensation, there is presence. But I tried the other direction - I expanded my awareness to include the space and things around me. Went large so to speak. Then my sense of self change to perception - a thing perceiving. So neither the experience of presence nor perception can be my innermost self as they changed. So while these may be true experiences, they are experiences of a something, a someone of whom I am yet to find the root. Interesting when I am deep in this searching sometimes I get energy chills moving through the body. So there is some recognition within this living system that something interesting is happening!
If I am neither just presence nor just perceiving, which I would think of as fairly 'thin' states of self.. what remains? Is there a residue? There must be something, as I have an existence. There is existing occuring.I certainly have a personhood I inhabit, but on what is it built???
The sense of self does change through the day, depending on how strongly I inhabit personhood. when working I am lost in the work, but I dont see this as being free from personhood, but rather engaging a refined strand of i - focused. When in low mood or in pain...and prone to complaint.. the personhood is stronger (indignation, wishing it were some other way).
But the suggestion you made about no agent controlling the sense of self at anytime, well I almost burst out laughing. Mooji talks about the second bird. The first bird is making a wee nest and living its birdie life, the second bird is on the branch above observing and watching - the 2nd bird of self awareness. But what level is next? I wanted to know about the third bird!!! I think you are talking about the third bird.Self awareness is still selfing, the awareness of the self sits inside the self so to speak. I can be an aspect of personhood, an aspect of 'selfing'. What then outside of this. No agent - the agentless void where flow is all there is. And my sense of self being this agentless flow. Entirely natural and not mine - not mine.... hold on, not mine. My self is not mine. My selfing is not mine. Ooh I just went into a weird internal loop. If I am not my self, sure - but if I am not even myself selfing....how subtle the sense of self can get. The illusion of self possession.
Where am I? How can I be? If there is not even the most subtle self. Is there a third bird, or was there never really a first and second bird that warrants the third? And now I am feeling a subtle distress. Like I will wink out of existence if I look too hard. I have had expansive and open experiences where the self was tiny, but it was still there. Experiencing. Watching - quietly but still watching. What was it then?
Ahh I am lost.

[Elad]

Hello Akasha,

You are speaking a lot here about different states it seems, from a very conventional self sense to states of no sense of self experienced whatsoever. The core of what we do here, however, is not about getting to a state with no sense of self at all. All this is about - and some places in your text your are starting to orient there - is to get 100% clear, if whatever SENSE of self there seems to be, and whatever sense of being a controller/chooser seems to be, is in fact is a separate self, a real controller and chooser? Or is it all spontaneous mysterious phenomena, with no separate self choosing or controlling or being it?


Please in this work we do here, don't aim for a different state, just to recognize if it is true that there is no real separate self. Also, please let go of all thoughts about what teachers said and past experiences, while we are doing this together. Stay laser sharp on the questions I ask you, and do your best to answer with childlike simplicity and sincerity, not aiming for something special or comparing to past experiences and concepts, yours or others.

Now look at these questions:

Do you control thoughts?
Do you control movement?
Do you control attention?
Do you control whatever sense of "this is me, this is mine" is there in this moment?
Do you control whatever the sense of the innermost will and feeling is, in this moment?

Do not analyze the questions. Only explore direct experience in the moment. See what reactions come up, see what is seen, see how all that just spontaneously happens. Let me know what is seen.

[Elad]

Hello Akasha,

Are you still in the process? Most people I work with, where this work is fruitful, respond daily here on the forum, or every couple of days at least. Everyone is different, and so is your process. And you might consider trying a different rhythm and way.

[Akashalila]

Sorry I did not get a notification of a reply and only just figured out out how to find this chat without the email link. I will take some time to consider your reply and get back to you

[Akashalila]

Do you control thoughts - No. They come and go of their own accord, they have a mind of their own! I can focus and direct thoughts when I choose, which is not that frequent, and is itself in response to conditions.. so not really control.
Do you control movement - much like thoughts. My movement is largely processed automatically and without a need for my direct involvement. Again it is done as a response to conditions. Even when choosing to move, the movement itself is not closely controlled. The body ‘knows’ what to do.
Do you control attention - Yes and no! I can choose to focus and direct attention but this is subject to conditions. Attention is not free from the environment that requires it. Attention can be demanded by conditions, such as when something urgent requires a response.
Do you control whatever sense of ‘this is me, this is mine’ is there in this moment - nope. Any sense of self is independent of my interest or need for it. It waxes and wanes depending on conditions. I can manipulate my sense of self using attention, but that is not control.
Do you control whatever the sense of the innermost will and feeling is, in this moment? - hmm no. I can influence through mental efforts but much of it is ‘decided’ without my direct involvement.. once again based on conditions (past and present)

[Elad]

Hey, welcome back. I always answer within a few days. LU sometimes have bugs, if you don't hear from me, feel free to write to eladexplore1111@gmail.com

Do you control attention - Yes and no! I can choose to focus and direct attention but this is subject to conditions. Attention is not free from the environment that requires it. Attention can be demanded by conditions, such as when something urgent requires a response.

Quite a lot of clarity here. And some things to clarify. The question is not if there is control conventionally. Conventionally you can (assuming normal functioning) walk but not fly, i.e. keep this movement "coordinated under control", but not certain others. The range of conventional control can be changed through learning and training, etc.

Point here is if there is actually really any self doing any of it? And if there is any ultimate control at all, or if even control is just there when it is there.

So look again at attention: focus on attention what it is on. And the notice when it changes. Can you actually control that at all?

And look right now either focus on a red apple for 10 seconds as best you can OR just let thoughts wander for 10 seconds. Do it before continuing to read. Which ever one was "chosen" and whichever thought process was involved - did this happen spontaneously and naturally by itself, or was there a you somehow intervening in it?

Is it true that even attention and choice and control and resistance and deliberation (the things we often associate with ourselves) are ultimately completely spontaneous nature without a separate self?

[Akashalila]

So I am hearing does ‘control’, and its versions, exist? I am inclined to thinking/feeling that spontaneity is the basic truth. In so much as it follows the condition path laid before it. ‘My’ participation in this is largely reflective, “i did this so I must have decided to do that”. There is an illusion I am driving the car, but the car needs no driver. Many choices I simply do not understand or even engage with.
In reflecting on my decision to observe or not observe the apple, as instructed, the choice simply occurred as a choice was required. There was very little visible processing.
I increasingly experience myself as a boat sailing down a river. Direction and speed determined by the banks and the wind, with only trivial impacts from the choices made at the rudder.

[Elad]

Right on. How is it for you to increasingly experience life in this way?

And now:

Look for if there is ANY you whatsoever anywehere?

Even when there is processing, is it "you" who does it?

Please calculate: 3 times 4 minus 2 plus 3

Notice what happens.

Any reactions and processing happening in response to this... Any increase in focus happening...

Was any of it decided and controlled by "you"? Or did it just happen?

[Akashalila]

Apologies it seems the poster wrote quite a few days ago has gone missing. I will attempt it again tomorrow.

[Akashalila]

It is disconcerting to experience life in this way. there is an odd detachment. It makes me question my purpose (is there one, other than being IN this stream of existence?) and the nature of ethics.
Am I just another human living a human life, just as every other animal on this planet lives their conditioned lives? only different in that I can observe it as such, but not really being able influence it very much at all despite this awareness. Am I not special in any way? It is uncomfortable.
And what of good and bad? Are they just not born of the pre-conditions? is not everyone therefore fundamentally innocent? I move increasingly toward this view of universal innocence, although it might offend those who need to label good and evil in the world (understandable). Even the 'good' is not owned by those who are good, but a result of their preconditions. All judgment of behaviour falls away. Behaviour just 'is'.
Now as for performing the calculation. it was performed. I have no distinct conditions that would act as barriers (i.e. negative experience with math, negative experience with yourself, positive commitment to engage in this process) so the math is done. Yes there is an increase in mental focus, but it does not feel like an increase in selfing. Was it controlled by me? The actual calculation was done by something else. A facility, or capacity for calculation did it (i.e. my brain). Like when the body moves, I dont move it, the capacity for movement does it - it takes care of the details.

[Elad]

You are doing well here...

The concerns and "nihilism" you worry about, is a result of taking on what you see as an intellectual belief. If we intellectually believe there is no self, no control, it can easily give rise to a sense of hopelessness and despair, as if you have "locked body syndrome", just worse "locked body-mind syndrome". All this is really the result of still unconsciously believing in self, and now just experiencing a helpless out of control out of meaning self. This is the reason I believe the Buddha said that believing in no self is worse then believing in self. Once your seeing is direct experience and clear, it is seen that this is beyond those concerns. On the conventional/relative level everything exists and matters, feelings, being decent, relationships, etc. At the same time at the absolute level none of it exists as imagined, none of it exists with a separate self or any other separation. The absolute doesn't negate the relative and the relative doesn't negate the absolute, it is beyond words and yet not even fixated beyond words, words can be useful...

SO

1) Keep looking at:

Who/what is it that seemingly exists and experiences the concerns you described? What is being seen AS IF it is the you that lacks meaning and so forth

2) Continue to be open to experience all feelings. And continue to see what BELIEFS give rise to the feelings, even beliefs in no self, no control, no meaning.

Let me know what comes up!