Ready to ask for help

[silverlode]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
there is a functioning self but the 'I' or 'me' that most people take for granted is not a permanent substantial entity and does not have to be believed in and is not in control of the human

What are you looking for at LU?
to resume dialogue with a guide in order to see through the illusion of a self being the author and controller of the psychological being. To see through the illusion of 'I' / 'me'. To go beyond just reading and thinking - instead to get feedback and prompts to new directions

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
an interactive dialogue to help me see through the illusion; to have access to someone who might be able to point out the blind spots and blocks that contribute to my efforts being stilted by a limited and self deceiving view

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Can anyone help me as I seem to have reached the limit of the resources available to a lone person ‘seeking’ to simply see the reality of no-self. I have twice been on the Liberation Unleashed forum but still don’t seem to have got it! Just to give a brief background of where I’m coming from and what my understanding is: my introduction to non-dual thought came from the books of Juddu Krishnamurti in 1971 and remained the only source of information until non-dual topics became available on the web. I corresponded with a LU guide for some months to a year (this was about 10 years ago) and then dropped off. Again I reached out to LU and two guides corresponded with me for a short while. During our exchanges I thought I was addressing the matters seriously but never quite came through. Since then I’ve done much reading and contemplation – always thinking ‘if I do some more or try harder I’ll get it eventually’. Needless to say I haven’t. I do realise that in the language I’m using the words like ‘trying’ ‘getting’ ‘seeking’ ‘I’ ‘wanting’ ‘expecting’ etc the contain their own contradictions. I think I’m pretty familiar with the basics and am acquainted with many of the subtleties and traps that thought weaves. So, I do examine this thinking and discount much of it, looking for what is simpler and more direct. But this does not become my reality, and it is reality I believe I am looking for – not states or advancement or acquirements etc. I’ve read all the LU introductory material, the book Liberation Unleashed, Gateless Gatecrashers and many of Iona’s YouTube talks blogs and interviews plus other material. Each article leads me to think I can get a bit closer and I’m always enthusiastic about outing this ‘I’ that keeps the show rolling. But I do now think that going it alone is not enough to crack it! My circumstances are a little different from the previous engagements I had with LU guides and I feel in a better position to see it through. So I hope it can be seen that this is no passing fancy and that someone there will be willing to explore the issues with me. Thanking you in anticipation. Steve
Previously my user name was Silverlode and I think I joined on Nov 21st 2012
My original guide was John – s-p-a-c-e
My original 'Silverlode' account is still accessible though I cannot see any way of contacting LU except by sending new application

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[vinceschubert]

Hi Steve, vince here. i love your persistence (obsession). i can remember that it was how I was.
i will be rough with you, so hang in there...

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Can anyone help me as I seem to have reached the limit of the resources available to a lone person ‘seeking’ to simply see the reality of no-self. I have twice been on the Liberation Unleashed forum but still don’t seem to have got it! Just to give a brief background of where I’m coming from and what my understanding is: my introduction to non-dual thought came from the books of Juddu Krishnamurti in 1971 and remained the only source of information until non-dual topics became available on the web. I corresponded with a LU guide for some months to a year (this was about 10 years ago) and then dropped off. Again I reached out to LU and two guides corresponded with me for a short while. During our exchanges I thought I was addressing the matters seriously but never quite came through. Since then I’ve done much reading and contemplation – always thinking ‘if I do some more or try harder I’ll get it eventually’. Needless to say I haven’t. I do realise that in the language I’m using the words like ‘trying’ ‘getting’ ‘seeking’ ‘I’ ‘wanting’ ‘expecting’ etc the contain their own contradictions. I think I’m pretty familiar with the basics and am acquainted with many of the subtleties and traps that thought weaves. So, I do examine this thinking and discount much of it, looking for what is simpler and more direct. But this does not become my reality, and it is reality I believe I am looking for – not states or advancement or acquirements etc. I’ve read all the LU introductory material, the book Liberation Unleashed, Gateless Gatecrashers and many of Iona’s YouTube talks blogs and interviews plus other material. Each article leads me to think I can get a bit closer and I’m always enthusiastic about outing this ‘I’ that keeps the show rolling. But I do now think that going it alone is not enough to crack it! My circumstances are a little different from the previous engagements I had with LU guides and I feel in a better position to see it through. So I hope it can be seen that this is no passing fancy and that someone there will be willing to explore the issues with me. Thanking you in anticipation. Steve

Steve, you’re caught in the loop of seeking itself. You’ve read the books, done the forums, contemplated for decades—but do you see the trap? The seeking reinforces the very thing you’re trying to dissolve.

Right now, in this very moment—stop.

Don’t try to get anything. Don’t look for some final realization. Drop every expectation, including the expectation that something profound must happen.

Look. What is here? Right now, before thought jumps in?

Not tomorrow. Not in five minutes. Not after another book or another guide.

Right now, is there a "you" separate from the experience happening? Find it. Not conceptually—viscerally.

Is there an “I” doing the looking? Or is there just looking?

Every time you reach for an answer, stop. Sit in the gap before thought fills it.

Right now, without any reference to past or future—what is missing?

How do I find it. Not conceptually—viscerally.
Drop every idea of how it should happen. Right now, shift attention away from thoughts. Not by force—just notice what is here before a thought labels it.

Do this:

Sit quietly—no need for special posture or meditation.
Feel the body—not as "a body," but as raw sensations. Where is the boundary? Where does "you" end and the world begin?
Listen—what sounds are here? Is there a listener, or just hearing happening?
Watch thought—is a thinker creating these thoughts, or do they simply appear?
Now, here’s the key: Do not go looking for a self. Instead, notice the absence of one.

Right now, what is doing the seeing? The hearing? The feeling? Can you actually find a separate "I" behind any of it?

Find the exact moment where “you” decide to move your hand. Did you control that? Or did it just happen?

No theories. No philosophy. Just raw, direct looking.

What do you find?

vince

[silverlode]

Hi Vince
'Stopping, Now' is a good starting point. I sit with the intention of not seeking. I am noticing the gaps before thought jumps in: this seems to be important. There is some space in between the thoughts which is clearer, purer. In comparison, thinking is sticky and thick.
I've studied and performed all the 'exercises' and suggestions you offered in your post and at this time I can only say: it will be ongoing.....
There was one time today when I was sitting by a river and asked 'what is missing?' and it seemed obvious that nothing is missing
There is no definite I / me when looked for but there is a throbbing energy in the background that manifests as soon as attention drops and I recognise I'm in ruminating mode. I could describe all this as a 'happening' without the use of I or me, but that seems a bit false / pretentious.
I favour 'looking' over finding solutions but when there's nothing to see, searching cuts back in.
I'm aware of traps of expectation, waiting for something, future, past etc so sitting and just looking is a bit of a battle with distraction - being on watch for these and sometimes the whole shebang feels like a seeking event. I look to drop having expectations but it's a bit like saying "whatever you do, don't think about Gorillas"
These are some initial descriptions of present experience and I've tried to incorporate your questions and points
I appreciate your taking time and energy with this
Steve

[vinceschubert]

Hi Vince
'Stopping, Now' is a good starting point. I sit with the intention of not seeking. I am noticing the gaps before thought jumps in: this seems to be important. There is some space in between the thoughts which is clearer, purer. In comparison, thinking is sticky and thick.
I've studied and performed all the 'exercises' and suggestions you offered in your post and at this time I can only say: it will be ongoing.....
There was one time today when I was sitting by a river and asked 'what is missing?' and it seemed obvious that nothing is missing
There is no definite I / me when looked for but there is a throbbing energy in the background that manifests as soon as attention drops and I recognise I'm in ruminating mode. I could describe all this as a 'happening' without the use of I or me, but that seems a bit false / pretentious.
I favour 'looking' over finding solutions but when there's nothing to see, searching cuts back in.
I'm aware of traps of expectation, waiting for something, future, past etc so sitting and just looking is a bit of a battle with distraction - being on watch for these and sometimes the whole shebang feels like a seeking event. I look to drop having expectations but it's a bit like saying "whatever you do, don't think about Gorillas"
These are some initial descriptions of present experience and I've tried to incorporate your questions and points
I appreciate your taking time and energy with this
Steve

Good, Steve. You’ve already seen that nothing is missing. Let that land fully. If nothing is missing, what is there to seek?

Now, about that "throbbing energy in the background." That’s interesting. Instead of analyzing it, get closer. Drop all labels. Let it be raw sensation. What exactly is it? Is it really a problem, or just something happening? If there’s no “I” to own it, does it even matter?

And this battle with distraction—who is battling? If a thought comes, does it mean you must follow it? Or is it just passing weather? Let distraction happen. Let expectation happen. If you resist, it sticks. If you watch without touching, does it stay?

You say “searching cuts back in.” Good. Let it. But who is searching? Is there an entity doing it, or just momentum of habit?

Next time that seeking energy kicks in, instead of fighting it, do this:

Let it be fully present. Feel it completely.
Look for the “I” behind it.
See if it’s anything more than a pattern running itself.
Keep reporting from experience, not concepts. What is actually happening right now?
and, get this...
There is nothing wrong with whatever turns up, except believing the content of stories that turn up about it. (read that line again)

with love

vince

[silverlode]

Hi Vince
I'm presently reporting an earlier experience:
After reflecting on your post today I fell into a sort of reverie in which I reviewed aspects of your comments.
Starting with 'raw sensation' and 'nothing missing' I saw that with 'no I to own it' it 'needn't even matter' I took on board 'distraction' 'need I follow it?' 'It's just passing weather.' Without detailing every one of the terms you shared it all made to much sense (seemed obvious) and felt like a seamless ride for half an hour or more. When I got up, I still had that clarity and focus until I got fully involved in everyday stuff. Running through all this was the question 'Who is seeing this?' and 'where is the I?' - and needless to say.... Zilch!
There were various nuances which I won't attempt to encapsulate but the whole experience seemed significant. I'm offering this without qualification or explanation - supposing that is most useful at this stage. It left me feeling what I can only describe as keen or motivated to explore more.
I've noticed a predictable urge to maintain this 'heightened state of awareness' but generally I'm satisfied to wait and see.

"There is nothing wrong with whatever turns up, except believing the content of stories that turn up about it." I've read that line more than twice and recollected it often!
The one area that I felt was missing was your injunction to: "Let it be fully present. Feel it completely." - regarding the seeking energy.
With appreciation
Steve

[vinceschubert]

Hi Steve,

Running through all this was the question 'Who is seeing this?' and 'where is the I?' - and needless to say.... Zilch!

Exactly. Zilch!

Let’s stay right here. Don't move away from this.

There is seeing, clearly. But no seer.
There is hearing, clearly. But no hearer.
Thoughts arise. But no thinker.

Check again, right now:

Is there any actual boundary, any dividing line between what's "inside" and what's "outside"?

Where is the "you" experiencing this moment? Can it be located anywhere?

Is there anything here that needs to be changed, solved, or understood?

Look at that directly, right now—don’t theorize.

Is there actually a "you" doing anything, at all?

It left me feeling what I can only describe as keen or motivated to explore more.

Pause right there.

See what's happening: **a thought arises saying "I feel keen to explore more."**

But what is this "I"?

Look closely, viscerally, right now.

Can you find anyone or anything behind that keen feeling? Or is there simply a sensation, energy, and a thought labeling it "motivated"?

Check directly: is a "you" generating this motivation? Or is motivation arising freely, spontaneously, without a source?

Instead of "exploring more," see clearly what's here already. If there's no separate self to find, what would further exploration accomplish?

Look now, without turning this into another search:

**Is there anyone at all who is "motivated," or is there just motivation appearing?**

The one area that I felt was missing was your injunction to: "Let it be fully present. Feel it completely." - regarding the seeking energy.

Perfect. Let's zero in there.

Right now, bring that seeking energy fully into awareness. Let it expand completely—no resistance.

Don’t label it. Don’t analyze it. Don’t try to make it go away or understand it.

Just allow it to be exactly as it is.

Notice:

- **Where in the body is it felt most strongly?**
- **Is it solid, fixed, or moving and shifting?**
- **If you fully allow it, without resisting, what happens?**

Stay right there with it. Let it fully manifest.

And now, look directly:

**Is there a seeker separate from this energy, or just the raw energy itself?**

No interpretation. Just directly see what's true.

**What is revealed?**

vince

[silverlode]

Hi Vince
I'm trying to be honest here - I've spent hours reading and considering the three posts you've sent so far and to put it bluntly, I feel I'm not keeping up. I see absolute gems of helpful suggestions in what you've said but in putting them into practice I don't produce results that I can report back. Yes, there's a lot of NOT finding: 'I' Seer, Thinker, Boundaries, What needs to change, Labels, Seeker etc. but at the moment, that's as far as it goes. Rightly or not, I feel obliged to report back something that you can work with and much to my surprise, I'm not getting anything much (or so it seems). I'm informed that it's important to post daily, so I will do so, but will it be OK to go slowly so that I can keep up? Just what you've shared in those three posts are a treasure trove of insights to seeing what's real and maybe I need to feed on them a bit more. There's no point in lagging behind and you not realising it! Please do fire off any illuminating suggestions you may have and I'll keep on with what you've given me to consider already and we'll see what I come up with. (By the way, last night I rattled off a long spiel in draft, which I've since discarded as it consisted mostly of excuses - so I thought it better to be honest)
Warm wishes
Steve

[vinceschubert]

Hi Steve, yes no worries about going slow.
Here's some context for you...
What is story and what is actual?
We go deeper and look. We look at what a story is, and we look at what actual actually is.
At a gross level, if we ask what a story is, we get something like "It's a narrative" or "it's a thought stream".
If we look a little deeper, we see that the narrative or thought stream is about a subject.
One step further back (even deeper) and we see that these (stories) not only have a subject, but the subjects can be categorised by nature. By flavor.
..and deeper still, we see that the prevailing nature is habitual.

Now, what is it to be actual?
At the grossest level, we might say that to be actual means that something exists.
Drop a level and we ask how do we know that something exists. We test it by seeing or touching or using any of our sense organs. So, let's get this straight. You test it by believing the interpretation of a perspective arrived at by your brain?
Deeper. OK, yes, I have a story that tells me that something is actual.
Hmmm...

Thoughts
"because I wait for a result to happen and thoughts coming like "Now, i will get it", or "I will never get it"."
Of course, this is the 'road block' that we need to find our way around.
What skill needs to be developed in order not to engage with those thought stories?
The first step is to recognize them as stories.
Now, tell me this; can a thought think?
..or do they come preformatted?
To avoid engaging with them, the idea might arise that says "flick them away". (can you imagine an idea floating towards you, beckoning for engagement, but you flick it away and it changes direction and floats off into the distance?)
..but flicking implies your ability to choose..
to choose to make a decision...
to make a decision to control the situation.
..and anyway, isn't flicking them also engaging with them?
...and we know that choice, decisions, & control are illusions. Don't we ? Have you experienced these delusions as illusions yet?
What if, instead of flicking them away, we simply redouble our efforts to find the pure sensation?
Yes, of course, that buys into the same delusions.
Well, what can we DO?
Nothing! Any DOing buys into those same delusions.
So, what's the answer to this quandary?
The answer is not something that you will find with thoughts.

i asked above (& please answer every question) if thoughts come preformatted.
By "preformatted", i'm referring to the habitual nature of them. Their flavor. (do you spontaneously think 'glass half full/empty'?)
This 'formatting' evolves over a lifetime. Every experience changes it minutely. Our body preferences (DNA) influence it.
...and here's the big one; THESE WORDS INFLUENCE THE NATURE OF THOUGHTS.

Do you grok that thoughts just appear?
They are not formed. They are not there..., then they are there.... (then again they are not)
If this is something that you have not yet experienced, do it now...
Simply watch.
Don't look for the content of any thought. Just notice the fact of a thought happening.
Do you know where they come from?
Do you know where they went?
Is there an image of thoughts passing through? Floating bye? ..or is it more like a flash? Like lightning? There for an instant then gone? Are they pictures or words? words heard or text seen? ..a mixture? ..or something else?

So, if a thought arises and you find that you're more interested in that fact that it's happening, than you are (interested) in what the content of that thought is, then you have 'unlocked the door'...

..a doorway through which thoughts don't follow.
What is there is pure sensation.
Raw sensory input, without the obscuration of stories.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Let me know how it went for you.

with love

vince

[silverlode]

If we look a little deeper, we see that the narrative or thought stream is about a subject.
One step further back (even deeper) and we see that these (stories) not only have a subject, but the subjects can be categorised by nature. By flavor.
..and deeper still, we see that the prevailing nature is habitual.

It's obvious what is meant by the narrative or thought stream being about a subject and its prevailing nature is habitual, but is there anything further to be understood about the subjects being categorised by nature or flavour?

So, let's get this straight. You test it by believing the interpretation of a perspective arrived at by your brain?
Deeper. OK, yes, I have a story that tells me that something is actual.
Hmmm...

Does that mean that it's essential or preferable to question everything the brain interprets or to discern which part of it is 'story'?

"because I wait for a result to happen and thoughts coming like "Now, i will get it", or "I will never get it"."

Familiar!

What skill needs to be developed in order not to engage with those thought stories?

I paused here and came up with 'recognising them'

Now, tell me this; can a thought think?

I may be shown a different view; but my first answer is 'NO'

..or do they come preformatted?

Yes, they appear to be pre-formed and off the shelf

To avoid engaging with them, the idea might arise that says "flick them away". (can you imagine an idea floating towards you, beckoning for engagement, but you flick it away and it changes direction and floats off into the distance?)

Yes

i asked above (& please answer every question) if thoughts come preformatted.
By "preformatted", i'm referring to the habitual nature of them. Their flavor. (do you spontaneously think 'glass half full/empty'?)

I recognise my habitual 'automatic' responses

...and here's the big one; THESE WORDS INFLUENCE THE NATURE OF THOUGHTS.

Can you clarify what "These words" mean in this sentence please?

Do you grok that thoughts just appear?
They are not formed. They are not there..., then they are there.... (then again they are not)
If this is something that you have not yet experienced, do it now...
Simply watch.

Did the 30 minute plus exercise and mostly didn't engage with thought. If a thought stuck, it was noticed and dropped. So at least during the exercise all the thoughts seemed unimportant and unnecessary to get involved with. In ordinary life, it's a different matter....

So, if a thought arises and you find that you're more interested in that fact that it's happening, than you are (interested) in what the content of that thought is, then you have 'unlocked the door'...

..a doorway through which thoughts don't follow.
What is there is pure sensation.
Raw sensory input, without the obscuration of stories.

An exercise worth repeating again and again?
Is this "pure sensation. Raw sensory input." just the thoughts moving through without identifying with them and getting hooked into the story?

Where are they coming from and going to?

Nowhere

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Just had to be available - attentive

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope. It's too late by then

Can you predict your next thought?

Not without engaging with a thought (which is against the rules of the exercise) to see where it's going

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

As above

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In this instance, they all seemed pretty random, but normally association connects thoughts together into a narrative, often with compelling force

[vinceschubert]

Hi Steve,

is there anything further to be understood about the subjects being categorised by nature or flavour?

Yes. This is key.

Subjects of thought—stories—have a certain *flavour*, don’t they? Some are anxious, some nostalgic, some grasping, some self-critical. Each carries a distinct energetic tone.

But here’s the deeper part:

**Are you choosing the flavour?**

Or does a certain “flavour” simply arise, depending on conditions, associations, moods?

Look at a thought as it appears—right now.
- Did you pick it?
- Did you shape its tone?
- Or did it simply show up, fully formed?

Now go one step further:

If a thought’s flavour is not controlled by “you,” then **who or what is the thinker?**

Sit with this—not conceptually, but *directly*. Let a few thoughts pass, feel their different tones, and report:

**Where is the “I” in any of it?**

Does that mean that it's essential or preferable to question everything the brain interprets or to discern which part of it is 'story'?

Neither. You don’t need to question everything, nor do you need to selectively discern.

Instead—**just see clearly what is happening.**

Right now:

1. **A thought appears.**
2. **It carries an interpretation, a story, a flavour.**
3. **Notice: Did you create it? Did you choose it?**

There’s no need to filter or categorize—just let everything arise and look:

- Is this thought an undeniable fact, or just a mental event?
- Does the thought have authority, or is it just passing like a cloud?
- Does a thought *require* your involvement, or does it come and go on its own?

The moment you see a thought*as a thought*, it loses its grip.

So don’t battle or categorize. Just see:

**Is this thought reality, or just another piece of passing weather?**

I paused here and came up with 'recognising them'

Excellent.
Now it's not just a case of recognizing them as thoughts, but not engaging with them.
How do we change this habit?
Here’s a story about getting lost in the content of thoughts and how to change it.

Here is a way to change how we respond when we get lost in thought without generating resistance.

**Laugh with recognition.**

This is a story about how being lost in the content of thoughts becomes habitual and how to shift it.

In the brain, neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are strengthened. They become more efficient with frequent use.

When we see that certain patterns of thought are no longer useful, there are two ways they can fade:
- They can be pruned, or
- They can atrophy from lack of use.

Neither of these can be directly controlled, but we can influence change.

### The Process:
1. **Observe an intent to shift.**
2. **When awareness dawns that you’ve been lost in thought—LAUGH.**
- A loud guffaw, a smile, even a mental chuckle works.
- This interrupts the old momentum and robs it of its grip.
- It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
3. **Visualize a new pathway forming**—one that sees through the illusion of being entangled in thought.

### The Key Insight:
As you recognize the moment you’ve been swept into thoughts, you will see the shift happening naturally.
At first, awareness comes late—after the thought storm has passed. But gradually, recognition happens sooner, cutting off identification before it fully takes hold.

Eventually, laughter becomes the new default response, replacing the pull into mental entanglement.

### Why This Works:
When we recognize we’ve been absorbed in a thought-loop, we switch brain activity from the left hemisphere (analytical, rigid) to the right hemisphere (spacious, holistic).

If recognition happens mid-thought spiral, it **short-circuits** it.
If recognition happens after, it **primes the brain** for catching it earlier next time.

This is about shifting a habit, so it takes time. But it does work.

**Bonus:** Celebrating the recognition moment with laughter reinforces the new pathway and removes judgment about the old habit.

THESE WORDS INFLUENCE THE NATURE OF THOUGHTS.
Can you clarify what "These words" mean in this sentence please?

Good ask. That was a clumsy way to put it..
What I was meaning that us talking about thoughts, changes them. This discussion makes you consider your thoughts from an objective perspective. (sometimes)

all the thoughts seemed unimportant and unnecessary to get involved with. In ordinary life, it's a different matter....

The above exercise will affect that.

Is this "pure sensation. Raw sensory input." just the thoughts moving through without identifying with them and getting hooked into the story?

It's what remains when we don't engage blindly with the content of thoughts

Just had to be available - attentive

Right, then you notice them, but did that produce them?

with love

vince

[silverlode]

Are you choosing the flavour?

Stories come with a flavour based on their subject; it’s not chosen but it is built in

1. **A thought appears.**
2. **It carries an interpretation, a story, a flavour.**
3. **Notice: Did you create it? Did you choose it?**

‘I’ didn’t CREATE it but it’s shaped according to predictably recognised patterns

If a thought’s flavour is not controlled by “you,” then **who or what is the thinker?**

I just can’t SEE who or what is the thinker. Thoughts appear from behind, it’s dark, a ‘sea of consciousness’

Sit with this—not conceptually, but *directly*. Let a few thoughts pass, feel their different tones, and report:

Impersonal thoughts produce a mild interest, thoughts with an emotional overtone are more compelling and seem to have a certain authority.

**Where is the “I” in any of it?**

There isn’t necessarily an ‘I’ unless the subject of the thought (e.g. a feeling rather than a math solution) requires it

- Is this thought an undeniable fact, or just a mental event?

It's quite transitory but more convincing if it’s about ‘me’

- Does the thought have authority, or is it just passing like a cloud?

It may seem solid as it appears and then dissolves and becomes less true, in time

- Does a thought *require* your involvement, or does it come and go on its own?

Thoughts get developed by my involvement but many are remote and impersonal as if they came from somebody else.

This is about shifting a habit, so it takes time. But it does work.

**Bonus:** Celebrating the recognition moment with laughter reinforces the new pathway and removes judgment about the old habit.

This exercise and accompanying comments all make good sense here at the moment, though I appreciate that the test comes from putting it into practice and seeing directly. Have tried it when I could and will practice some more

t's what remains when we don't engage blindly with the content of thoughts

I think I’m experiencing that happening through this insight

Right, then you notice them, but did that produce them?

It seems inevitable that more thoughts are produced as a result of that noticing.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Steve,

Stories come with a flavour based on their subject; it’s not chosen but it is built in

Do you recognise that the flavour is built in by your habitual way of looking at things?

I just can’t SEE who or what is the thinker.

excellent. It was kind of a trick question.
We assume that questions are a device to point you to an answer, but here they almost never require an answer. The value of a question is in what is discovered when contemplating it. If you are compelled to give an answer, then "I don't know" or "it is a mystery" or "I can't find an answer" is a legitimate response.

Impersonal thoughts produce a mild interest, thoughts with an emotional overtone are more compelling and seem to have a certain authority.

Good noticing. Go a step further and notice which thoughts are about you (probably ones with the emotional overtone) None of them are to be believed at face value.

There isn’t necessarily an ‘I’ unless the subject of the though...

Really very excellent!
Can you see that an "I" only comes into existence conceptually?

- Is this thought an undeniable fact, or just a mental event?

It's quite transitory but more convincing if it’s about ‘me’

Yes, for sure, but this still doesn't make it a fact - right?

I think I’m experiencing that happening through this insight

Good stuff. Keep noticing.


vince

[silverlode]

Do you recognise that the flavour is built in by your habitual way of looking at things?

Yes, yes, yes, but I suspect they are in fact, just the other side of a 'screen' as far as direct experience is concerned.

Good noticing. Go a step further and notice which thoughts are about you (probably ones with the emotional overtone) None of them are to be believed at face value.

There is constant noticing of thoughts that are on shaky ground in the light of belief.

Can you see that an "I" only comes into existence conceptually?

That comes up frequently and I get flashes of understanding (or seeing?)

Yes, for sure, but this still doesn't make it a fact - right?

I very much doubt if anything I think about 'me' is a fact!


Sitting, watching thoughts passing - sometimes they all drift by as I observe from the bank, and other times I get into the water and wrestle with them in a discussion about the process.

Remember to do the laughing exercise sometimes and it's helpful to break the chain. Set the compass to point to: 'Don't take anything too seriously' I need to lighten up and not - ice up rather than spend time chipping away at the Iceberg. (That's what analysis and reflection feels like.) A number of things are giving direction and there's a feel of the direction; just frustrating to perceive it 'over there'

[vinceschubert]

Hi Steve,

there's a feel of the direction; just frustrating to perceive it 'over there'

Good—you're sensing a shift, a pull, something just on the edge. But notice: **where exactly is "over there"?**

Is there actually a distance, or is "over there" just another thought?

Right now, look directly:

- What is the *feel* of this direction?
- Where does it appear?
- Is there truly something separate that must be reached?

Or is it simply **here already, but obscured by the thought that it's not?**

Drop even the frustration—let it be, don’t resist it. Feel everything fully. And now ask:

**What is missing, right now?**
How do you look for "what is missing, right now"?
Don’t “look” for it—**stop and see.**

Right now, sit. No searching, no analyzing.

Ask: **What is missing?**

Then, **wait.**

Don’t rush for an answer. Let the question hang in open space.

See what happens before thought jumps in.

If something feels “missing,” what exactly is it? Can you find a gap? A hole? A place where something *should* be?

Or is the *sense* of something missing just another thought appearing *within* what is already whole?

Look now. **Is there actually anything lacking, or just the thought that says so?**

You're on the verge Steve. You just need to grok that thought take you away from what is **actual**.

With love

vince

[silverlode]

Dear Vince
I've made notes about the responses to your questions and suggestions, and then dismissed my notes when I look back at them, as just a list of excuses and justifications, so now I'll try to give a straight response, from experience.
I agree wholeheartedly with the theory of what you're saying: looking, noticing, letting, accepting, recognising, not believing etc and it 'feels' so right, and that informs me (argh! that word again) that this IS the right direction, this IS where to look. I'm looking out for the traps and false paths when I sit and when I notice a thought or tendency in moving-about life.
Maybe doing that is part of the trap itself, so
how can one find the narrow line between avoiding and engaging? Time after time the question "who I seeking"is asked and also the other biggy "what is missing?". I use the 'tip' of laughing out loud, and review the question: "who is doing this" and "where is the I?". This maintains the momentum because there's a sort of faith in that approach (whilst being aware of expectations popping up everywhere) Oh, and I do pause and look for the gap - and then get tired of waiting##
So, I guess I'm just carrying on, not-expecting some sort of non-event. I see that NOW is the only point sorry focusing on, but having said that, could it be that Time is needed for seeing to occur at the right moment?
This now feels like a right rant! and not at all what I thought was going to be said, so I hope, Vince that you can pick something out of it, ignore the blather and return a nugget of wisdom. Be as tough as you like
With gratitude. Steve
PS I realise I haven't directly addressed all the questions and suggestions you put in your last post (which might be more helpful) but I thought I'd get to this off my chest for now🥴