Where am I?

[You]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What seems to be a “self” is just a conglomeration of memories, concepts, desires, aversions, thoughts, assumptions etc. When we investigate and look for a self, whatever we can find is an observation. And what we can observe is an object, not a subject. So when we keep looking we never can find and observe a subject, so we can’t find a self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m not sure if my understanding of no-self is only intellectual and I’m just adopting a new belief, or if I’m actually at the point of having seen through self. I want to know which is the case. If it’s the first one, I’m looking for guidance through the gate, and if it’s the second one, I’m looking for the end of doubt.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to find clarity through the dialogue (I have been on this path mostly alone; no teacher, and nobody in my personal surroundings seeking awakening, too). I’m working with “The Awakening Curriculum” on Pernille’s channel, so maybe it would be beneficial to have a guide who is familiar and in line with it or with fetter work in general, but if that’s not possible, no problem; I understand that the method of direct pointing is quite independent of any specific framework. The conversation could be either in english or in german, which is my native language. Since it could be relevant for how I experience and how all this is unfolding for me, I would also like my guide to be aware that I’m almost certainly on the autism spectrum (no official diagnosis).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Since my teenage years, I have been seeking in different directions. Among these, the ones I can still build upon are: The Work of Byron Katie, years of mindfulness meditation and meditation as taught in “The Mind Illuminated” by Culadasa, as well as lots of reading, for example Shinzen Young and Joseph Goldstein.
Two years ago I finally came across nonduality / advaita vedanta / the direct way / self inquiry and the topic of awakening in general. I changed my approach in meditation from trying to become a good meditator into investigating my direct experience. I read and watched mainly Angelo Dilullo, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Adyashanti… By the end of 2024, my search on YouTube for more and more pointers became so frantic, that I decided I needed a more focused approach. I started The Awakening Curriculum and … WOW! It has been SO revealing! Fetter 2 is SUCH a big one for me! Before watching the videos about fetter 2, I thought the point where I am at now, was this: I have “seen” through self only intellectually, but haven’t experienced it yet (hence this frantic seeking for pointers to finally “get” it). Now that I have learned about fetter 2 and 3 and that identification can still happen even after having seen through self, I’m not so sure anymore. Maybe the fact that I’m not constantly living in a “state of no self” doesn’t mean that my understanding of it is solely intellectual. Maybe it’s just what it is and the other fetters are still pulling me back into identification again and again and I should focus on them. But I don’t know. So that’s why I’m here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide. I an familiar with The Awakening Curriculum and would be happy to be present in this inquiry with you. :)

Before we start please read both the following documents from LU carefully and let me know if you have any questions, doubts or reservations in regards to them:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Looking forward,
Becca

[You]

Hi Becca,

thank you so much for picking me up!

I have read the documents and have no questions, doubts or reservations.

Looking forward to the process.

Warm regards.

[graceabounds]

Great!

Here are a few initial questions to help clarify things:

You referenced frantic search for pointers on YouTube. Is this still going on as before or has it eased up?

Can you recall any distinct moment of seeing through Self or has it been more of a gradual unfolding?

What does doubt look like, how does it show up to you?

When we investigate and look for a self, whatever we can find is an observation. And what we can observe is an object, not a subject. So when we keep looking we never can find and observe a subject, so we can’t find a self.

If all that appears is an object, where is the observer?

-Becca

[You]

You referenced frantic search for pointers on YouTube. Is this still going on as before or has it eased up?

That has stopped since I started The Awakening Curriculum. Step by step I have watched the videos until fetter 4, most of them more than once, and now and then I click on one of Angelo Dilullo’s or Vishrant’s videos, but no, no frantic seeking anymore.

Can you recall any distinct moment of seeing through Self or has it been more of a gradual unfolding?

The way to how I think about the self (basically that it is just a concept, an illusion) as by now has rather been a gradual unfolding. But the thing is that I don’t know if this IS “seeing through self” or if I have just adopted the nondual teachings as a new world view because they make sense to me.

What does doubt look like, how does it show up to you?

It shows up as second guessing, as not trusting my experience. Actually, it showed up right now as I wrote the last sentence. It was a thought, saying something like: “What experience? How can I talk about experience when maybe what I have is not an experience (of seeing through self) but just a belief system, so: what experience? Maybe the doubt is absolutely right.”

Another example, maybe a little bit more concrete, is: I know people personally who can sense certain things, like the energy of a place (for example a temple, a church, some spot in nature, etc.). They are so sure that what they feel is real - in the sense that it is a perception and not an imagination. When I feel something like that, I am not sure if I am really perceiving something or if I just make it up based on the ideas I have about the place.

If all that appears is an object, where is the observer?

I have my head full of nondual ideas, but if I had to answer just from direct experience, I can only say: I don’t now / I can’t locate it.

[You]

You referenced frantic search for pointers on YouTube. Is this still going on as before or has it eased up?

That has stopped since I started The Awakening Curriculum. Step by step I have watched the videos until fetter 4, most of them more than once, and now and then I click on one of Angelo Dilullo’s or Vishrant’s videos, but no, no frantic seeking anymore.

Can you recall any distinct moment of seeing through Self or has it been more of a gradual unfolding?

The way to how I think about the self (basically that it is just a concept, an illusion) as by now has rather been a gradual unfolding. But the thing is that I don’t know if this IS “seeing through self” or if I have just adopted the nondual teachings as a new world view because they make sense to me.

What does doubt look like, how does it show up to you?

It shows up as second guessing, as not trusting my experience. Actually, it showed up right now as I wrote the last sentence. It was a thought, saying something like: “What experience? How can I talk about experience when maybe what I have is not an experience (of seeing through self) but just a belief system, so: what experience? Maybe the doubt is absolutely right.”

Another example, maybe a little bit more concrete, is: I know people personally who can sense certain things, like the energy of a place (for example a temple, a church, some spot in nature, etc.). They are so sure that what they feel is real - in the sense that it is a perception and not an imagination. When I feel something like that, I am not sure if I am really perceiving something or if I just make it up based on the ideas I have about the place.

If all that appears is an object, where is the observer?

I have my head full of nondual ideas, but if I had to answer just from direct experience, I can only say: I don’t know / I can’t locate it.

[You]

Oh. I just wanted to correct a typo and it turns out I copied and quoted the entire post and now I don’t know how to delete it 😅🙈 Sorry about that!

[graceabounds]

It shows up as second guessing, as not trusting my experience. Actually, it showed up right now as I wrote the last sentence. It was a thought, saying something like: “experience? How can I talk about experience when maybe what I have is not an experience (of seeing through self) but just a belief system, so: what experience? Maybe the doubt is absolutely right.”

Nice catch!

I have my head full of nondual ideas, but if I had to answer just from direct experience, I can only say: I don’t now / I can’t locate it.

:)
It is great that you already know how to LOOK in direct experience. This is where the certainty you instinctively know is to be found will come from.

But first, let’s let the thoughts run rampant on these questions:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

[You]

It is great that you already know how to LOOK in direct experience. This is where the certainty you instinctively know is to be found will come from.



Thank you for saying that, Becca. That gives me hope.



1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?



Life will unfold as a stream of experience without the identification with selected parts of the experience ("my" thoughts, "my" feelings, "my" body etc.) and without the disidentification with other parts of the experience (the world “out there”).



2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?



There will be less reactivity, just clear seeing of what is coming up on in the moment. I´ll explain what I mean with an example. The scenario: I have to do something, let´s say, answering an email, and there is anxiety about it.

- 
How it was: I react to this uneasy sensation by procrastinating. I run from it until the consequences of not answering the email become even more scary than not answering it, so I react and run from that by finally answering the email.
- 
How it is mostly now: I react to this uneasy sensation by procrastinating. After a few (and sometimes many, many) hours I realize: Wait! What am I running from? Wait! It´s not the email, it´s a tiny little sensation of anxiety! Is it even directily related to the email? Let´s face it. Let´s just feel into it! And I stop running from it, notice that it is there, just feel it. In most cases, email writing happens after that, but that it not the important point I want to make here.
- How I imagine it will be after the realization that there is no seperate self: Noticing of uneasy sensation. No reactivity in form of being threatened and chased by it. Just feeling it, perceiving it.


The result is not in getting things done. That could be a side effect or not. The result is another way of relating to sensations and thoughts. In the above scenario, reacting to the sensation is like beleiving a thought: It´s experienced as "my" feeling that tells "me" something "true" about that scary email and protects "me" by signaling "me" to run from it. But without that "me"-perspective, there is just a sensation coming up. Fullstop.





3. What do you want not to happen?


A fear/concern that is present is that "normal" friendships with people who are not on the awakening path could become impossible... Does this happen? Has this happened in your case?



4. What are you hoping for?


To wake up. To experience the world from this peephole which also gives access to the part of the world that are the sensations and thoughts arising in this body-mind, without falling back into identification with this body-mind.



5. What is missing?


I guess there is nothing missing... It´s rather that what is there is still clouded by thoughts, believes, identifications etc.




I would like to add one more example to my answer about the doubt. 
The idea that feelings are bodily felt (!) sensations + thought is very new to me. I have been very unaware of the bodily aspect to feelings. Other than strong feelings that make me laugh, cry or let my heart bump faster, I had categorized and experienced feelings as mental events and not bodily ones. Now, when I’m asked in a guided meditation or in one of Pernille’s videos to feel the sensation in the body and I notice something subtle like a heaviness in the chest, my inner reaction to that is not: “Oh, wow! THAT is how sadness feels in the body! Wow! I have never noticed this before!” It’s rather like: “Yeah, I feel something, but I could be making this up, maybe I’m just imagining it. How do I know that the sensation is really something to be felt and not just a fabrication?”

[graceabounds]

I think this is all reasonable as expectations go, with the caveat that some of this will come after the seeing through the illusion of a separate self. From an Awakening Curriculum perspective, much of “the world out there” is in fetter 6, and some of the reactivity in the email example is a combination of 1, 3 and 5. Everyone’s experience is different but our work here often sparks a precipitating event (or non event depending on how you look at it!) and then is followed by an unfolding and deepening process.

A fear/concern that is present is that "normal" friendships with people who are not on the awakening path could become impossible... Does this happen? Has this happened in your case?

Friendships come and go, with or without this. My best friends are still my best friends. Is there a specific relationship that there are these thoughts about?


The idea that feelings are bodily felt (!) sensations + thought is very new to me. I have been very unaware of the bodily aspect to feelings. Other than strong feelings that make me laugh, cry or let my heart bump faster, I had categorized and experienced feelings as mental events and not bodily ones. Now, when I’m asked in a guided meditation or in one of Pernille’s videos to feel the sensation in the body and I notice something subtle like a heaviness in the chest, my inner reaction to that is not: “Oh, wow! THAT is how sadness feels in the body! Wow! I have never noticed this before!” It’s rather like: “Yeah, I feel something, but I could be making this up, maybe I’m just imagining it. How do I know that the sensation is really something to be felt and not just a fabrication?”

This is a handy formula, but the purpose of it is to recognize that by separating the components the result changes. If the thoughts are the more habitual/prominent component of the formula in your experience it will be interesting to see what happens when worked on from that angle. Going back to the example about the email, the anxiety you described seemed to be fueled by a whole lot of thoughts and only a “tiny little sensation”.

So now an exercise:
Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

[You]

From an Awakening Curriculum perspective, much of “the world out there” is in fetter 6, and some of the reactivity in the email example is a combination of 1, 3 and 5.

Thank you for contextualizing it that way. When I proceed to the fetter 5 and 6 playlist I will have that in mind.

My best friends are still my best friends. Is there a specific relationship that there are these thoughts about?

That’s good to hear. The thoughts are about my best friend and also about friendships in general. But, as a seeker I’m in some kind of limbo already, and that has never scared away my best friend and I on my side can still relate empathically to her, and new or casual friendships have never been an easy territory for me anyway, so I can as well walk the entire way, that is: through the Gate. The willingness is definitely there.

This is a handy formula, but the purpose of it is to recognize that by separating the components the result changes. If the thoughts are the more habitual/prominent component of the formula in your experience it will be interesting to see what happens when worked on from that angle.

Wow, I like this perspective; that it’s also just fine when the thoughts are the more heavy side of the formula and that it’s an option to work from that angle. It reminds me of The Work of Byron Katie, where thoughts are seen as the cause for feelings and actions (“How do you react when you think that thought?”). But I also want to explore the sensation side, since I noticed that often after I just feel into a sensation, let it be there, meet it with compassion (context: what Pernille says about trauma), things stir/move/dissolve/are liberated: behavior changes (how I react in typical situations, more openness in communication) or strong emotions and/or people or places from past periods of my life come up in my dreams.

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

First time:
heart pounding
Thought: Waaaaaah! What am I supposed to feel/think/experience/write here???
More heart pounding
Confusion
Feeling of being lost
Tension in the face
More heart pounding
Hearing voices of neighbor kids outside
Thinking about zoom meeting coming up in 15 minutes

Second time:
heart pounding
Thought about implication: This holds freedom, openness in it!
More heart pounding, hearing music outside
Thought: These people outside also are no separate selves
Heart pounding
Hearing bird and sensing light toothache
More heart pounding
Thought about zoom meeting coming up in 11 minutes

Third time:
Thought: nothing changes if I realize that, because there never has been a self in the past
Thought: there are a lot of thoughts! Shouldn’t I experience/feel more instead?
Thought: this heart pounding IS already “feeling”, or should I say “sensing”?
Heart pounding
Thought: if there is no separate self, this heart and this body are not “mine”
Thought about zoom meeting coming up in 7 minutes. I should definitely continue this again later without something time sensitive coming up
Heart pounding, hearing children play in pool outside
Tensed face
Sudden broad smile
Broader smile
Eyes tearing up
Energy waves and shiver running through body
Smile
Heart pounding, hearing people and music outside
Thought: zoom meeting in 3 minutes, continue later.

Fourth time (later in the day. There had been a mix of curiosity, eagerness and resistance to start this again.)
Tension in face
Heart pounding
Face relaxing
Opening eyes, seeing clothes
Thought: Let’s see them without the label. Just colors.
Thought: Are they me?
Hearing buzzing in background
Hearing coughing
Doubts: Am I deviating too much here? Should I focus more on the sentence instead of observing what is present in the aftermath?

Fifth time:
Heart pounding
Heart pounding even faster
Smile
Hands getting a little sweaty
Heart pounding
Bigger smile
Seeing clothes -> colors
Smile
Deep breath
Bigger smile
Heart pounding
Thought: There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be
Even bigger smile
Thought: Wow, there were less thoughts this time
Heart pounding, slow and deep breathing
Subtle attachment arising to what I have written down here
Thought: The ego is claiming this for itself: This attachment is coming from it’s thought “I’m doing this pretty good”
Heart pounding
Tension in face
Resistance to where this just went

Sixth time:
blank
Hearing buzzing in background
Heart pounding
Heart pounding
Smile
Waiting
Thought: Pernille says: “Can you ever be waiting?”
Heart pounding
Seeing colors
Thought: Should I write instead “seeing colors in front of me”?
Thought: That that didn’t occur to me at first, does this have something to do with that there is no me?
Thought: Am I deviating?
Thought: Who am I?
Very deep breath
Hearing car in the distance
Thought: What does distance even mean? Was this relevant or was it just “hearing car”?
Thought: it was just hearing

Seventh time:
deep slow breath
Hearing buzzing
Feeling cold wall against my back
Heart pounding
Smile
Smile stopped
Next smile
Seeing colors
Remembering exercise for subject object dissolution
Thought: am I deviating?
Tension in face
Hearing buzzing
Deep breatch
Smile
Thought: There is no separate self… -> bigger smile
Even bigger smile

Eighth time:
Tension in jaw
Tension in forehead
Heart pounding
Smiling
Hearing buzzing
Hearing dog barking
Remembering Rupert Spira’s anecdote about hearing a dog bark
Judging my wording of the last sentence
Deep breath
Slight smile
Heart pounding
Big smile
Thought: Why am I smiling? Where is this coming from?
Bigger smile
Seeing colors, hearing sound
Sensing cold in back, warmth in legs
Heart pounding
Smile

[graceabounds]

Great work!

But, as a seeker I’m in some kind of limbo already,

Who is where? :)
Can you find ‘a seeker’ in direct experience? Or limbo?

I also want to explore the sensation side, since I noticed that often after I just feel into a sensation, let it be there, meet it with compassion (context: what Pernille says about trauma), things stir/move/dissolve/are liberated:

Lets explore. A lot was noticed in this last exercise --relaxation, energy waves, heart pounding, smiles.
Let’s take this deeper:

1. Sit or lie down in a quiet space.

2. Drop all labels.
Instead of “tension” or “pounding,” what is actually present? Is it pressure, heat, movement, contraction, expansion?

3. Can you find a boundary? Where does the body end? Is there a clear dividing line between “body” and “space”?

4. Is there an inside or an outside? If you feel something inside, what makes it “inside”?

5. If there’s sensation, is there a ‘feeler’? Can you find a “someone” in the experience of sensation?

6. Let the body be as it is. No fixing, no controlling, no trying to relax. Just witnessing.

What did you notice from this exercise? Was there resistance to dropping labels? Did any sensations dissolve or shift when fully experienced?

[You]

Hi Becca,

thank you for your fast reply! Before I can answer, I think I need some clarification about dropping all labels:

2. Drop all labels.
Instead of “tension” or “pounding,” what is actually present? Is it pressure, heat, movement, contraction, expansion?

In a sense, all words are labels… But I need words to describe… I’m not sure where I should draw the line between words that are labels and words that are no labels… Could you please elaborate on that or give more examples?

Thank you so much!

[graceabounds]

Yes all words are labels.
For the exercise itself just be with the sensations. describe afterwards.
When describing stay in like a 3 year old basic level: hot, cold, big, small etc. Just what is experienced … not what you think about what is there or what the experience means.
Does this make sense?

[You]

Thank you for the clarification. I hope I understood it correctly.

Who is where? :)

Yeah… Good question… No one is nowhere… It’s a story…. Maybe it’s more accurate to say: This personality/mind experiences difficulty connecting with others… But even that is full of labels that are not part of direct experience.

Can you find ‘a seeker’ in direct experience? Or limbo?

No. They are just concepts. Elements of a story.

2. Drop all labels.
Instead of “tension” or “pounding,” what is actually present? Is it pressure, heat, movement, contraction, expansion?

Just different sensations: movement, pressure, temperature, heaviness, burning, pain

3. Can you find a boundary? Where does the body end? Is there a clear dividing line between “body” and “space”?

No boundary. In direct experience, there is no body, just sensations. Sometimes the image/idea of the body is also present in direct experience, but it’s clear that this is additional; there are sensations and there is an imagination of a body, but no body. No clear dividing line between body and space; there is just space, and a part of it happens to be accessible to perception by sensing (the space into which the nerves reach - I know that this is labeled and not part of the direct experience. I only write it to clarify what I mean). Only this part of space (which we would normally identify as the body) is felt, and what is not felt is just not part of the direct experience, so the idea of boundary or “end of body” makes no sense.

4. Is there an inside or an outside? If you feel something inside, what makes it “inside”?

No. In direct experience the idea of inside and outside makes no sense. Only inside is present, outside is nonexistent, so the label inside can also be dropped and is dropped.

5. If there’s sensation, is there a ‘feeler’? Can you find a “someone” in the experience of sensation?

Yes and no. No in the sense that while I was doing the exercise I had not the experience of “I am sensing …”. Yes because I noticed that there was some kind of perspective; that sometimes (not always, in retrospect) the sensations seemed to be felt as if perceived from the head area…

6. Let the body be as it is. No fixing, no controlling, no trying to relax. Just witnessing.

What did you notice from this exercise? Was there resistance to dropping labels? Did any sensations dissolve or shift when fully experienced?

Not really a resistance to dropping labels, only still some confusion about what is a label and what is not. Dissolvings:
- When hunger was felt without the label “uncomfortable” the feeling became quite interesting and then faded into the background.
- When pain was felt without the label “potential health problem” it first became interesting and then dissolved.
Shift: At some point, when the sensations were not “controlled” or “jailed” by the normal limiting label “body” it felt as if there was a wavy up-and-down-movement, like riding on waves, that was much more pronounced than the physical movement of the body caused by the breath.