with open curiosity and gratitude

[Sol42]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? There is no separate entity or integral phenomenon to identify as self. A jumble of labels, stories and ever-changing characteristics. Experiences (like kindness) feel real, like I can just be in them, just rest: no need for explanation or conceptualization. When I try to see who is being kind, I see nothing that I can be, in which I can rest.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for guidance: someone who sees and helps me to look, checks my blind spots, points to where I am stuck… In a more general sense, I am looking for truth, that’s all (I know, piece of cake!). There is a question later down the page about my willingness to question beliefs about self. It’s a burning 10. To me, it’s not only about willingness to question my beliefs, but also about UNwillingness to hold onto them. Onto the lack of sense and fakeness. I just want to know the truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? There are no expectations per se. There is curiosity about both the process and potential discoveries, and, of course, hope that there will be discoveries. There is also trust in unfolding of communication and the journey, the way they unfold. What I would like to get from a guided conversation: compassionate, no frills, humorous companionship and, well, guidance! :) If shifts happen, I imagine everything would look less fake, the clinginess would lessen, the fear as well.
One expectation: I do expect myself to be present (how ironic) and willing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Meditation, reading, listening (pretty much anything on spirituality: a wild mix). Every day, there are interactions with reality which feel like spiritual practice, that is, when I manage to stay in the present moment.
As for inquiry, it is usually catalyzed by suffering and/or the feeling of unnaturalness of what I see as me. Of attempts to keep up the façade: give “me” shape, define me, describe me, act like me, present myself to others as me, experience “my” feelings, make sense of MY life. There are occasional glimpses, little understandings, little “of course”s. I see small changes, things like a little more flow, a little more of just being; but overall, I feel stuck with the façade I don’t know how to drop.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Magdalena]

Hello there, Sol (or would you like me to call you some other name?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed, and thank you for waiting.

My name's Magdalena and if you'd still like to talk, I'm here.

I appreciate your eagerness to question your beliefs, so let's start with one statement from your intro, i.e.

...when I manage to stay in the present moment.

What unsubstantiated beliefs can you identify as you reread it now?

[Sol42]

Hello, Magdalena!

Yes, I would still like to talk, and very grateful to you for picking up the thread! Yay! “Sol” works just fine :).

What unsubstantiated beliefs can you identify as you reread it now?

As I reread it now, the following comes to mind, in the order of “coming-to-mindness”:

First, a belief in time. - There is no present (or past/ future) moment: it is all here/now, and even that is a label slapped on the experience so that we could “operate”. (I am very unclear when it comes to this “operating” thing, it is very much separated from “being” for me, so far.)

Second, a belief that there is an I. - There is no I, so who is “managing”?

Third, a belief that I can do or not do something. - Since it just IS, how can “I” manage or fail – these are nonsensical, just labels. Stay – another action. “Where” would “I” “go”? However, this conceptual understanding that no such thing as “do” brings me back to “operating”, and I feel lost and confused.

I use way too many quotation marks. In an attempt to communicate the idea of a label, I reckon... but in this case, why don’t I do this with every single word? If I really knew that everything said and thought and done should be quoted, there would be no need in this conversation, right? Thank you for volunteering to look into this with me.

Please let me know whether the way I organized my post works: it might take me some time to figure out editing.
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hello, Sol,

Thanks for your answers – they are absolutely correct. ;-)
I’m just wondering how much of this is what you’ve read or heard people say, and how much is your own experience.

Like here:

There is no present (or past/ future) moment: it is all here/now…

How do you know?

Or here:

There is no I, so who is “managing”?

How do you know? What is your experience of this?


Or:

Since it just IS, how can “I” manage or fail – these are nonsensical, just labels.

What is your experience of this?

Stay – another action. “Where” would “I” “go”?

Absolutely. LOL

I use way too many quotation marks. In an attempt to communicate the idea of a label, I reckon... but in this case, why don’t I do this with every single word?

That’s completely fine - but does it matter at all? ;-)

I am very unclear when it comes to this “operating” thing, it is very much separated from “being” for me, so far.

Can you tell me more about what you mean here?

Thank you for volunteering to look into this with me.

You are most welcome. Looks like it’s going to be fun, don't you think? ;-)

[Sol42]

Hello Magdalena,

Thank you for the questions, I will work on more correct answers! ;)

Looks like it’s going to be fun, don't you think? ;-)

Oh, absolutely!! :D

There is a need (hmm, maybe just fear of giving "wrong" or "stupid'" answers) to "feel about" your questions a little, so it might take a day or two. It usually takes me time to process... Unless you think it would be better (more fun?) if i just answer the first thing that comes up?

With gratitude,
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hey Sol,

This is not a school 😉 and your answers don't need to be correct.😉

Sometimes the best answer is the one that comes up first, and at other times - the one which arrives after some careful "looking", i.e. observation.

Either way, it must be an answer that comes out of your own experience, and NOT out of other people's ideas.

[Magdalena]

You still here, Sol?

[Sol42]

Hello Magdalena,

Yes, I am still here. My apologies for taking so long, this wasn't my intention: exams and other school issues took me out of commission for several days. Next time I will try to respond right away without giving myself time to overthink.

I’m just wondering how much of this is what you’ve read or heard people say, and how much is your own experience.

Mostly what I’ve read and learned, all understood conceptually though I can’t tell how well. Most things are experienced in tiny bits, small moments which don’t create a complete coherent picture.

There is no present (or past/ future) moment: it is all here/now…
How do you know?

This one is a frequent experience, and I just can’t find a way to describe it. Yes, it’s only now, and both the future and the past are experienced now, in the present. A “second ago” is always freakishly gone. Never was. At the same time, I have been unable, thus far, to “let go” of my story of the past. Looking at it piecemeal: whenever a memory, lets say, comes up, I question it. The way I see it, identification is strong.

There is no I, so who is “managing”?
How do you know? What is your experience of this?

As for “there is no I”: I don’t know that. I understand that, I believe that, but I don’t know. When looking at it, there, again, have been multiple little shifts. For example, mentally deconstructing my body/brain into smaller and smaller particles, and not seeing anyone there, just emptiness, having no relation to my reflection (happened to be in front of a mirror), was one of the moments of experiencing along with understanding. Expanse, quiet, “settled”ness as in having everything, being just right, nothing is missing, nowhere to go, completeness. And then it’s gone.

Since it just IS, how can “I” manage or fail – these are nonsensical, just labels.
What is your experience of this?

Please see below

I am very unclear when it comes to this “operating” thing, it is very much separated from “being” for me, so far.
Can you tell me more about what you mean here?

This operating thing is a hang up on free will and ability to DO something. My understanding here is that “all of it” is a complete thing, a gestalt. Events happen or not, and I don’t have a say in any of the unfolding, because I am not there to say anything. What I believe to be my my decisions are just a confluence of all the factors throughout my life. My understanding, however, is nothing compared to the terror of “giving up control”. I can see where it comes from, psychologically: "my story" makes “giving up control” feel like something dangerous. Another part of it – something that resonated deeply when I was listening to one of the Ilona’s inquiry videos – is “giving up” the ability to choose to do good. Like, what the world is ever gonna do without my invaluable input! Fear: can’t act deliberately – can’t protect myself – can’t make anything better - stuck in my suffering and can only expect more of it. Concepts like there is no me as a character, there is no past, the story is but a story, there is no good/ bad, the who I really am doesn’t need protection or being good, thank you very much, and so on – don’t change much. Haven’t yet. I would really appreciate your insight.

Thank you for still being here for me.

With gratitude,
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hello Sol,

Good to hear from you. No need to apologise – life happens. ;-)

…my intention: exams and other school issues took me out of commission for several days. Next time I will try to respond right away without giving myself time to overthink.

Can Sol make his intentions materialise?
Does Sol have control over circumstances like exams etc. and how many days they take?
Can Sol decide whether to overthink something or not?

Most things are experienced in tiny bits, small moments which don’t create a complete coherent picture.

That’s OK. Unless you’re expecting to have a 24/7 complete, coherent and unshakable experience.
Are you?

whenever a memory, lets say, comes up, I question it.

How do you do that?

The way I see it, identification is strong.

Just because there is identification with the story of Sol, does it mean that the story of Sol actually happened- and that it happened exactly the way it is being remembered?

Expanse, quiet, “settled”ness as in having everything, being just right, nothing is missing, nowhere to go, completeness. And then it’s gone.

Oh, so you’d simply like to intend that it does not go – and then it stays there for good, right?

My understanding, however, is nothing compared to the terror of “giving up control”. I can see where it comes from, psychologically: "my story" makes “giving up control” feel like something dangerous.

I see.
But how do you know that THERE IS any control to be given up in the first place?
If you had control over things RIGHT NOW, worrying about giving it up would make perfect sense.
But is that the case?

Like, what the world is ever gonna do without my invaluable input!

I bet the world will make it somehow. LOL

Fear: can’t act deliberately – can’t protect myself – can’t make anything better - stuck in my suffering and can only expect more of it.

Fair enough.
But have you noticed that, somehow, acting happens (or not), protecting oneself happens (or not), making things better happens (or not). As for the certainty with which you’re expecting more suffering, well – if you can predict “the future”, please give me the lucky Lotto numbers for Tuesday (would really appreciate it LOL).

Thank you for still being here for me.

You are most welcome.
Please answer all the questions. :-) No rush. Take your time if you like (or not). ;-)

[Sol42]

Hello Magdalena,
Thank you for your understanding and the questions!

Does Sol have control over circumstances like exams etc. and how many days they take?
Can Sol decide whether to overthink something or not?

No, no control over what happens and how long it takes. No way to stop the thoughts, either.

Unless you’re expecting to have a 24/7 complete, coherent and unshakable experience.
Are you?

I am not. However, I think that what I am experiencing now is not “it”, so there IS at least partial expectation about how “it” should be/feel etc.

whenever a memory, lets say, comes up, I question it.
How do you do that?

Start with simple questions: is it really true? What if this is not what happened? How do I know for sure what happened and how? If I’m persistent enough, I ask myself what beliefs are behind the story and how does it serve me to have this story (what function it performs for me?). I usually go down the rabbit hole of overthinking. If I get emotional, and it is usually the case, I sit with it, just let the emotions be, observe the physical sensations. Observe clinging to stories, rejecting emotions, resenting physical sensations.

Just because there is identification with the story of Sol, does it mean that the story of Sol actually happened- and that it happened exactly the way it is being remembered?

Nope :-)

Oh, so you’d simply like to intend that it does not go – and then it stays there for good, right?

Oh, I would like that very much! :-D There will be no state of eternal bliss, I understand it. Then why is there a desire/hope to have these glimpses more frequently, in the first place? What am I chasing? Ultimately, clarity and a kind of peace. Now I feel like Jacob who wrestled with god in the dark, and I want to stop wrestling with the perceived reality, and just be as it all is (well, understand that I don't have to stop anything and it is already as it is). So... this means there is a belief that the glimpses are “mile markers” telling me that I am on the “right path” and eventually will get “there”. This sounds ridiculous, AND it is pervasive. AND it is neither ridiculous nor non-ridiculous, it’s just a concept. How do I “let it be”??

But how do you know that THERE IS any control to be given up in the first place?
If you had control over things RIGHT NOW, worrying about giving it up would make perfect sense.
But is that the case?

It is not the case, Sol has no control. Control is nonsensical, because it has duality/separation as a prerequisite.

But have you noticed that, somehow, acting happens (or not), protecting oneself happens (or not), making things better happens (or not). As for the certainty with which you’re expecting more suffering, well – if you can predict “the future”, please give me the lucky Lotto numbers for Tuesday (would really appreciate it LOL).

LOL I would love to know some lucky lottery numbers! Unfortunately, no, there is no knowledge of what is going to happen. There is only a second-by-second discovery of what is.
As for "acting happens", yes, it does (or doesn't), at times I can see it clearly and it feels natural, as much as one can use this word here. More natural, than, say, wrestling. I have never tried to intentionally look at happenings from this perspective, however. I will do that (exciting!:-)).

With gratitude,
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hello Sol,

I think that what I am experiencing now is not “it”, so there IS at least partial expectation about how “it” should be/feel etc.

If what is being experienced now is not “it”, then what is?
Or what would be “it” – what are those expectations, and what makes them “partial”?

... Observe clinging to stories, rejecting emotions, resenting physical sensations.

Looks like you’ve taken some suggestions as to how to question things to heart and are serious about putting them into practice.
What matters is you see through your thought stories.
That’s good, but since the whole process doesn’t seem to be working (unless I’m getting you wrong), perhaps it’s time to try some other way? (Just saying.😉)

There will be no state of eternal bliss, I understand it.

There may be, or there may not be. Who knows?

Then why is there a desire/hope to have these glimpses more frequently, in the first place?

Because of having read, heard and believed too much of the so-called teachings?

I want to stop wrestling with the perceived reality, and just be as it all is.

Look, we “wrestle” with life as long as it’s needed. Once we see the futility, we give up.

Who knows how much longer you need to wrestle before you get it that there is no point in wrestling?

Let me tell you one thing: whether wrestling or not, this is IT. You may wish it to be different, but life does not seem to care, does it? Meaning you can just as well stop wishing and start living what there is instead.

Not that there is a choice in this. But it happens (or not).

… “mile markers” telling me that I am on the “right path” and eventually will get “there”. This sounds ridiculous, AND it is pervasive.

Ha ha ha ha – so it is.
What would happen if you were to stop buying into all those fairy tales about paths, milestones, getting somewhere? I mean – stop – for good, you know.

How do I “let it be”??

You stop being naïve and believing in everything that people say on the subject, and instead you laugh whenever you catch yourself indulging in that sort of fantasy.

Control is nonsensical, because it has duality/separation as a prerequisite.

No. Control is nonsensical because it only exists in imagination.
Name three things, no matter how small, that you have some control over.

You may find this helpful:
Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I have never tried to intentionally look at happenings from this perspective, however. I will do that (exciting!:-)).

OK. Tell me how it goes. 😉 But don’t turn it into some sort of effort – just watch with curiosity. Keep your eyes open and watch.

[Sol42]

Hello Magdalena,

Will respond to your message tomorrow the latest, for now just want to share:

Let me tell you one thing: whether wrestling or not, this is IT.

I just had to pause reading after this. A feeling of immediate expansion and quiet joy, huge smile, even muscles relaxing.

And then:

What would happen if you were to stop buying into all those fairy tales about paths, milestones, getting somewhere? I mean – stop – for good, you know.

Immediate pang of fear, and "but I won't get anywhere if I just stop..." thought, contraction.

I'm just shaking my head. We, humans, are...fascinating! :-) I will answer these and all other questions in detail, talk to you soon!

With gratitude,
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hey Sol,

Both of these responses are IT, too.

Would they be here if they were not?

Can anything be any different than it is, ever?

Looking forward to hearing from you. 🙂🙂🙂

[Sol42]

Hello Magdalena,

Thank you for the questions (my head is spinning LOL)!

If what is being experienced now is not “it”, then what is?
Or what would be “it” – what are those expectations, and what makes them “partial”?

Conceptually: yes, it is all “it”. Experientially: constant wrestling. The fantasy is that when I “reach the destination”, everything would stay just the same, but the hue, the flavor would change. Same life routine, but it would be a flow vs wading knee deep across the stream. The future, the everything would stay as unknown, but the wariness would be replaced by “hm, how interesting…”
What makes these expectations partial is the knowledge that expecting something from life is useless. Just an empty exercise, a delusion. I feel that this knowledge is a very certain thing, kind of a “duh”, so how do I still have expectations, I don’t understand. Would it make more sense if we replace expectations with “hope”? Not in practical sense, of course, both are concepts. And does it matter at all, what my fantasies are? Just thoughts.

That’s good, but since the whole process doesn’t seem to be working (unless I’m getting you wrong), perhaps it’s time to try some other way?

I would like that very much 😊

Because of having read, heard and believed too much of the so-called teachings?

Of course. Gosh, thank you for pointing this out! Complete automation: feed the computer certain sets of data, it will come up with certain results. Right now it feels sad and a little scary – probably takes me back to the “no control” question.

Let me tell you one thing: whether wrestling or not, this is IT. You may wish it to be different, but life does not seem to care, does it? Meaning you can just as well stop wishing and start living what there is instead.

This would be the only sane thing to do (to be). How do I practice this: just coming back to it, over and over again?

What would happen if you were to stop buying into all those fairy tales about paths, milestones, getting somewhere? I mean – stop – for good, you know.

I touched upon that: how would I get anywhere this way? Now, having sat with it a bit, and looking at your previous questions, it feels like the ideas about the “process” could be seen as invitations to look into and experience things for myself. But buying into any of these tales would be no different than buying into Grimm’s tales.
What would happen if I stopped? I imagine, I would feel (ha!) more freedom, more flow, more “hm, how interesting”s. There will be less rules for the game, therefore more natural playfulness, more fun.

No. Control is nonsensical because it only exists in imagination.
Name three things, no matter how small, that you have some control over.

This subject is confusing. I know that I can’t control an outcome. At the same time, I think I can make some of the decisions/choices. For example: I can decide to never touch a cigarette but can’t control whether I get lung cancer or not. I can choose paint for my bedroom, but can’t control how it will actually look, how well it’s going to cover surface or last. I can’t control falling in love, but I can choose to marry or not… yet can’t control the consequences of my choice. I can see how most choices we make are the natural results of our evolution, but I just can’t imagine that there is absolutely no way for us to choose “against our nature”, or just randomly.

Three things I think I can control: the speed of my breath (within natural limits), not exceeding the decided upon amount of money I spend on an item, the number of cups of coffee I drink a day. All the above is nonsense, given that there is no separate self. Yet I just can’t wrap my head around it. What am I missing here? How can I look at it differently? Palm exercise is amazing, but, in my mind, doesn't address everything. At the same time, I think it does: should be the same principle. Like a last night's dream, can't pin it down.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

How is the movement controlled?
- It is not controlled at all.

Does a thought control it?
- No.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
- Can’t find a controller.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
- Decision is not linked to the action! Even when I try to decide and then turn the hand as quickly as I can, the two still feel unconnected. It is funny and freaky at the same time.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
- There was no choosing here, the dominant hand stepped in, by default.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
- I can’t find anyone or anything. It just happens.

OK. Tell me how it goes. 😉 But don’t turn it into some sort of effort – just watch with curiosity. Keep your eyes open and watch.

It was fun today. Weather was weather-ing, people were people-ing. My actions were automatic, just happening. Yet, again, there was what I perceived as a decision to do certain things, or not. But after that, the actions just unfolded, whether they were decided upon or not.

Magdalena, I understand there are many inconsistencies and contradictions in what I am saying here. When I try thinking it through, I get confused, it’s like drawing on water. I will come back to the hand exercise many times: it was very visceral, felt true. I would love more suggestions on how to experience this, thank you! :-)

With gratitude,
Sol

[Magdalena]

Hey Sol,

Experientially: constant wrestling.

Tell me about it: what is Sol wrestling with? How is this wrestling experienced? One or two examples would help. (If you want to share something that feels too private on the forum, you can PM me).

so how do I still have expectations, I don’t understand.

Tell me – have you ever noticed how it is impossible for anything to be different than it is?

Considering all the “past” and “present” circumstances, conditions, available options – can anything be happening any differently than it is?

Consider something as trivial as our conversation on here, for example. Could it be happening if there was not a shared interest in what we are talking about? Or if I had not learnt English at some point (not a native speaker)? Or if you or I had no electronic devices with which to communicate – not to mention the fact that these devices had to be designed and constructed, and that the materials they are made of had to be sourced somehow from somewhere? That they had to be paid for? Charged? Maintained? If the Internet was not yet invented? If the LU forum had not been established? And so on, and so forth.

Would it make more sense if we replace expectations with “hope”?

No.

Not in practical sense, of course, both are concepts.

Yes.

And does it matter at all, what my fantasies are? Just thoughts.

It doesn’t matter, but it’s not the way you feel so there’s no point dismissing it with the “just thoughts” mantra.

That’s good, but since the whole process doesn’t seem to be working (unless I’m getting you wrong), perhaps it’s time to try some other way?

I would like that very much 😊

OK – but I’ll wait for your wrestling examples first so we have something to relate to.

Right now it feels sad and a little scary – probably takes me back to the “no control” question.

What exactly scares you about the no-control thing? That once you see it, you’ll lose your job, people you’re close to, your home? That you’ll end up in a loony bin? That you’ll be struck by lightning? Eaten by wolves?

buying into any of these tales would be no different than buying into Grimm’s tales.

Is there any difference between your tales and Grimm’s tales?

I can decide to never touch a cigarette but can’t control whether I get lung cancer or not.

Well, you can decide not to touch a cigarette and reach out for one the next minute. Or you can never touch one without ever making any decisions about it.
Whether it’s smoking, paint colours or marriage partners, wouldn’t the final choosing happen kind of like in the hand flipping experiment?

Three things I think I can control: the speed of my breath (within natural limits)

Yes, within the limits. Try and overdo the experiment and nature will show you who’s in control.

not exceeding the decided upon amount of money I spend on an item

the number of cups of coffee I drink a day

Does it work every single time? Like there’s not even one day when you overspend or reach for that one more cup beyond your limit?
And who decides that setting these limits is a thing in the first place? Where do these ideas come from? Sol the Great Controller of Life?

Decision is not linked to the action! Even when I try to decide and then turn the hand as quickly as I can, the two still feel unconnected. It is funny and freaky at the same time.

Hahahaha
Try again LOL – are you sure that what seems to be “your decision” – the thought saying “I will do this or that” – comes before the doing?

It was fun today. Weather was weather-ing, people were people-ing. My actions were automatic, just happening. Yet, again, there was what I perceived as a decision to do certain things, or not. But after that, the actions just unfolded, whether they were decided upon or not.

Is Sol making decisions about and in control of how this conversation unfolds? Because Magdalena is not. 😉