Looking for guidance

[JordanM]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

My understanding of no-self has changed and shifted since I began investigating this subject some years ago. At this stage, I have had moments, or glimpses of awareness without subject/object or labeling. But they are always very short. I simply have to continue this journey. I don't feel I have a choice. And I need help.

What are you looking for at LU?

Guidance to truly see that there is no self. No separation between myself and others or objects. To truly be able to surrender to the now, and experience awakened awareness. I know intellectually that the seeker will never find what it seeks. It's just another thought. But I continue seeking. I've had brief moments of being able to stop, and just to be. And everything become very still and clear. And then a thought comes in and I'm back on the mind roller coaster. I hope to meet someone who has been through the gateless gate, and can help me to see truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I don't really know. I don't currently have any expectations, or at least I'm working on identifying them and letting them go. I do have thoughts come up if wanting to be free. Wanting to learn methods to be able to truly see what I am or what I am not. I also hope to build some sense of community with others, as I love discussing and learning about this stuff. Overall, I don't really know what I will get out of a guided conversation. I imagine it will be nothing I would expect anyway.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have finally began daily sitting meditation with self inquiry for a little while. I do meditation throughout the day and try and do self inquiry through the day as well, when I remember to. I've read books and practiced practices from any different traditions. But I've not been great and sticking to them until recently. I go through phases of reading every spiritual book I can, and then listening to all the lectures I can find on YouTube. I do not have a specific traditional lineage, and I don't know that I'll ever settle with one. Currently self inquiry and meditation call to me very deeply over all else.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hey Jordan, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU :)

What are you looking for at LU?

Guidance to truly see that there is no self. No separation between myself and others or objects.

Do you see a self now? Where is it? Where are you? You say "no separation between myself and others/objects" but you've already separated them with thought. That's like saying "I want to see no separation between the upper part of my glass of water and the lower part of my glass of water". The different parts don't exist until you use thought to artificially divide and categorise things into boxes. Where's the separation between the air above your right hand and the air above your left hand?

To truly be able to surrender to the now, and experience awakened awareness.

If you're "trying to surrender", you're already failing to surrender 😂😂. You can't "be able" to surrender because surrender isn't a thing you can do. Everything you're doing is the exact opposite of surrender 😂.

I've had brief moments of being able to stop, and just to be. And everything become very still and clear. And then a thought comes in and I'm back on the mind roller coaster. I hope to meet someone who has been through the gateless gate, and can help me to see truth.

Were you really "able" to stop? When you "stopped", were you "just being"? You say this like "stopping" and "being" are things we can do. What if the only thing between you and surrender now is you TRYING to surrender?

Wanting to learn methods to be able to truly see what I am or what I am not.

?? What are you referring to when you use the word "I"? You wanna see what "you" are? You might as well just say you wanna see what asdfgh is or asdfgh is not. What are you even talking about?

I do have thoughts come up if wanting to be free.

Are you not free? What do you wanna be free from?

I have finally began daily sitting meditation with self inquiry for a little while. I do meditation throughout the day and try and do self inquiry through the day as well, when I remember to. I've read books and practiced practices from any different traditions. But I've not been great and sticking to them until recently. I go through phases of reading every spiritual book I can, and then listening to all the lectures I can find on YouTube. I do not have a specific traditional lineage, and I don't know that I'll ever settle with one. Currently self inquiry and meditation call to me very deeply over all else.

You don't need to ever settle with a tradition, and you don't even need to consume any more spiritual content than you already have, probably. Just look and see.

I know intellectually that the seeker will never find what it seeks. It's just another thought. But I continue seeking.

You don't need to know anything intellectually, you're just repeating words that have no inherent meaning/truth/value. But what are you seeking? What's not here, now? What's apart from THIS?

Try this:
First, use meditation to quiet the mind somewhat. Then, inquire: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING of "oh here's the gap" is another thought. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?" Look and see, man.

[JordanM]

Thank you for your words. I had to let them steep for a bit. I have begun the self inquiry practice awhile ago (and I'm using "I" to refer to the body/mind construct using this phone). The gap has been noticed and then the noticing of the gap has been noted as thought. The mind gets frustrated often, and that is then noted as thought. For a moment though (moment in clock time I guess), there was just... Awareness without knowing it was awareness. Awareness with nothing binding. And as a thought came, awareness was surprised by it and went towards it instantly. And then it was noted as thought. Is this a good cycle? I have stopped trying to be some sort of rigorous mendicant. But I do have my daily sitting and practice throughout the day. I know that "I" can't know. "I" is nothing, and also everything. But I speak these words from mostly the mind, without much or any direct experience with it.

[ty0]

and I'm using "I" to refer to the body/mind construct using this phone

What body/mind construct? What's a body? What's a mind?

For a moment though (moment in clock time I guess), there was just... Awareness without knowing it was awareness. Awareness with nothing binding.

If it wasn't known that "there was awareness", why do you now go back and put the label of "awareness" on it? You don't have memory of knowing there was awareness... so why do you make this conclusion now? What is awareness?
Can you observe awareness without thinking about it? In that moment when thought was absent, and the idea of awareness was absent, and the knowledge of awareness was absent... was there awareness?

And now, is there awareness, OR is there the idea of awareness and the "knowledge" that awareness is here?

Is this a good cycle?

Keep on with it :)

[JordanM]

Words just fail don't they?

[ty0]

Yes, words fail, but not yet. I'm asking these questions to find out if you believe that the body and the exist. Also to find out what you refer to when you use the word "awareness".

[JordanM]

Honestly. I don't know what I mean by awareness. Whenever I try to define this thing, I can't. For instance I was driving today and had a feeling of sadness. I let it just be and didn't interrogate it. And then a thought came through "I wish I would awaken". And then the thought "who is it that believes it hasn't awakened?". And I noted that the thought "I wish I would awaken" or I'll never awaken" is just thought. Not me. And the thought of noting a thought is a thought. When I keep looking for a me, there's nothing solid anywhere. Even the boundaries of the body become fluid and start to seem to melt into the surroundings. The point of view disappears. There is no-thing to notice no-thing. Until a thought appears. There was a moment or event or whatever, or no-thing. And a thought appeared. And the split moment before it appeared it was like noticing the thought created the illusion of "awareness of thoughts". It was like... I don't know. I can only reflect on it in memory with words. Pure presence without anything needing to be present? I have an intuition to just keep opening to this. Without anyone there to try and be open. I honestly almost feel that I'm going insane sometimes. And then I note the insane thought. And the noting of the thought. I just don't know how to simply exist. Even though I believe that's what I've always done. I'm rambling now. Any thoughts? Haha. I'll ruminate on this. I don't think "I" actually exist. But the decades of habits and thoughts keep dragging something back into believing it actually exists.

[ty0]

Hahahah, awesome. Yeah, even calling it presence is totally unnecessary cause there isn't even an "it" to give a name to. As thought arises, there's that habitual default assumption that "I'm aware of the thought" or "There is awareness of the thought", but when we look closer... we don't find any such thing. The point of view can disappear because the point of view was only ever a thought that required effort to hold up. And then... what's left?

Anyway, you'll see a lot of these things on your own. It sounds like you've found a piece of loose thread and you've begun pulling on it to unravel the whole thing. From a practical standpoint, just keep on keeping on. Investigate your "body" more. How do you know you have a body? Spend some time looking at the sky and taking slow walks.

Btw, you wanna do a call? Maybe sometime this or next weekend?

[JordanM]

Thank you again for the response. I have started doing some attention on the body stuff because of Angelo Delulo's book. Among all the other stuff. Alot of it didn't make any sense when I first read it 6 months ago. But the last few months everything just kinda clicks. And like at work or randomly at the store I'll see or hear some word or phrase or even just a noise and another thing from all the stuff I've read or listened to falls into place. It's accompanied with a very pure and almost child like joy. Usually when that happens a thought arrives "oh shit this just be part of awakening!" and then a split second later that too gets recognized as just thought. I'm curious, how do you refer to yourself during basic conversation and stuff? I've seen many awakened or not non-dual folks use all kinds of verbiage, and I'm wondering how you flow through that. I would be down for a call this weekend. I'm on the west coast and am fairly available on Saturdays and sundays. We can schedule a time window? This Sunday would work best for me. Let me know a time that works for you. My number is 206-501-6810. Feel free to shoot me a text anytime as well.

[ty0]

And like at work or randomly at the store I'll see or hear some word or phrase or even just a noise and another thing from all the stuff I've read or listened to falls into place. It's accompanied with a very pure and almost child like joy.

This is where the money's at. Go gaze at the sky. Take more walks, feel your legs. Spend a good amount of time gazing at the sky. If you have a river nearby, gaze at that, too.

'm curious, how do you refer to yourself during basic conversation and stuff? I've seen many awakened or not non-dual folks use all kinds of verbiage, and I'm wondering how you flow through that.

I just talk normally lol. I think the use of strange language is indicative of belief systems.

I'm on the west coast and am fairly available on Saturdays and sundays. We can schedule a time window? This Sunday would work best for me.

I'm 15 hours ahead of you so I don't think Sunday your time works for me, I'll be at work on Monday 😂. If this Saturday your time isn't convenient, we can do next weekend.

My number is 206-501-6810. Feel free to shoot me a text anytime as well.

You got WhatsApp or Telegram or Facebook Messenger? They'd be free as opposed to international texts.

[JordanM]

I'll get a what'sapp account together today and send you the username and we can to from there! Thanks again!

[JordanM]

I got WhatsApp installed. Same phone number of course. Name Jordan M. The photo is me eating a banana. Shoot me a message when you'd like. Have a good day/night!

[ty0]

Cool I've sent you a text. Also wanted to comment on...

I honestly almost feel that I'm going insane sometimes. And then I note the insane thought. And the noting of the thought. I just don't know how to simply exist. Even though I believe that's what I've always done

You can't "exist" the same way you can't "surrender" or "stop". Surrender isn't happening for you because you're always looking for something. And when you don't know what to look for, you look for a WAY to surrender. As long as you try to simply exist, you can't simply exist, because you're trying.

Give this a read and "do" it: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/co ... ctice_and/

Also, you keep looking for something, but behind that lies the basic assumption that there's something to look for. But can you look in your experience now, and tell me, is there anything apart from this? You can't look for anything here because it's already here, so is there anything that's not here? What's not here? What's apart from this?