Let's get to work...

[Cam-RT]

Hello and Welcome!

By what name do you prefer to be called?...You know, to make this a more "personal" conversation...

Now I do have one little rule...That when I ask you questions, please answer when ready,  with complete honesty, precisely, and what you "feel" is 100% true...

One more important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over. They are of NO use here...You can revisit them later if you wish...

Commitment is the key here... Seeing this will take a little time but if you don't perform "The Work" daily this will undoubtably take far longer than it should...

And please check in and let me know where you're at...

Okay first question...

What expectations  do you have from becoming Liberated?

And next before I go is...

What comes up when I say..."There is no separate entity "Self" in real life at all??

[Martin1977]

Hello Cam. I would be most grateful for your guidance. My name is Martin.

As regards liberation, I see it as an escape from needless fear and suffering. I see it as gaining a sense of true perspective. I imagine a state of sustained calmness and clarity, and perhaps even occasional bliss, possibly similar to some of the states I have temporarily achieved through meditation in the past.

When you say there is no separate self I feel my conditioning kicking in and protesting. I look at another peson, look at myself, and mentally don't question that we are two entities doing our own things, mu self and himself. I don't feel his suffering, he doesn't share my aspirations, I have priorites about my "self" and loved ones that are of no consequence to him and vice versa. My "Self" seems to be the aggregate of my various experiences, influences, genetic inheritances etc. I can just abot get the concept of there not being a "self" intellectually, but something deep within me doesn't or won't let it sink in at a fundamental level. A bit like talking to me about infinity: I can imagine it ... but I can't really imagine it. It remains an abstract thing, rather than something that chimes at my core, the way I imagine it should.

Reagrds, Martin.

[Cam-RT]

Hello Martin...

I imagine a state of sustained calmness and clarity, and perhaps even occasional bliss possibly similar to some of the states I have temporarily achieved through meditation in the past.,

I suppose you get some relief from meditation, but "Mr. Reality" with be sure to keep you grounded even after liberation...

My "Self" seems to be the aggregate of my various experiences, influences, genetic inheritances etc. I can just abot get the concept of there not being a "self" intellectually, but something deep within me doesn't or won't let it sink in at a fundamental level.

Of course...The Self has been around and building on itself for a very long time (like a bad habit) and it will try and keep you from looking as best as it can, (distracting and frustrating you.) to keep from being found for what it really is..

The thing to keep in mind, what your looking at here is what's "behind" these thoughts...Whenever you get a "physical reaction" or connection to thoughts trace the thought bring it up close and shed the light of "truth" on it...Ask yourself "Is this true in real life??"

Thoughts scream for attention and the more you "feed" these thoughts the more they'll grow...(Thoughts feed on physical energy to survive.) Once you drag them into the light of truth and call them on "The truth of Reality" all that that remains after the fact is "Truth".

Liberation, can be a destructive process yet in the end...you end up shedding alot of bullshit that builds up over a lifetime..

Pick some of these "negative thoughts" that stirs these uncomfortable feelings... Are they true?

Then look behind them...What"s driving these thoughts??

[Martin1977]

A very direct and basic question - the collection of memories etc that I talked about, that does exist, as do my thoughts, feelings, abilities, body, self image etc. Those things are "real" surely? And isn't that what "self" is? Just that collection of factors which do exist within each individual, each unique?

Also, could you clarify how the self "distracts and frustrates" me? Are you saying that my various anxieties, obsessions, fears etc are just constructs created by an imaginary self to keep me occupied rather than tending to the truly important business of seeing that "I" don't actually exist?

what your looking at here is what's "behind" these thoughts...Whenever you get a "physical reaction" or connection to thoughts trace the thought bring it up close and shed the light of "truth" on it...Ask yourself "Is this true in real life??"

So if I think about, for example, relationship issues and feel a pang of concern in my stomach, is it not possibly true that I could be having genuine problems of some kind which have a negative impact on my life experience, and perhaps on other people too? If my career was in the toilet and I felt the need to improve it, isn't that thought based on something "true in real life"?

I have to be very honest and say I just don't know where the thoughts come from. They just pop up, and then tend to repeat themselves quite a lot. I think of them as being like a smoke alarm, drawing my attention to something that isn't quite right and needs to be seen to, a bit like the way pain highlights problems in the body. Of course something new always comes up for the mind to chew over, which is why I can kind of see it's a self-feeding machine that can never be satisfied in its current form. But as for seeing the wizard behind the screen who is making all this happen, I just don't know how or where to look. I guess the idea is to look and then see there is nothing there, but it just feels like I'm thinking about looking. I'm not sure I can cast enough awareness into myself to fathom my own workings.

Regards, Martin.

[Cam-RT]

Hello Martin:

the collection of memories etc that I talked about, that does exist, as do my thoughts, feelings, abilities, body, self image etc. Those things are "real" surely? And isn't that what "self" is? Just that collection of factors which do exist within each individual, each unique?

First off..let's take a look at how the thought process works...

The mind, in addition to being an incredible processing and storage device, is also a labeling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens.

Here's how it occurs...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled---New trigger---Feeling gets more intense ---More labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This is what go's on endlessly when " I " is at the centre...

The "self image" is a lie... Just a collective of thoughts over a life time that convinces the host, of an imaginary identity that doesn't exist in real life...

Also, could you clarify how the self "distracts and frustrates" me? Are you saying that my various anxieties, obsessions, fears etc are just constructs created by an imaginary self to keep me occupied rather than tending to the truly important business of seeing that "I" don't actually exist?

To the first part of this question is undoubtedly Yes...You answered correctly...You can also refer back to the thought process, and use the body to your advantage when these negative feelings pop up...Trace these feelings back to the thought look at it for what it is... Ask yourself is this true?? Dump it and move on...KEEP LOOKING!!

So if I think about, for example, relationship issues and feel a pang of concern in my stomach, is it not possibly true that I could be having genuine problems of some kind which have a negative impact on my life experience, and perhaps on other people too? If my career was in the toilet and I felt the need to improve it, isn't that thought based on something "true in real life"?

Well my friend...It's like this, if you have realationship issues ( it will either help it or if the realationship is failing...It is what it is...not what it should be.) The relationship works or it doesn't, you catch my drift right?

It all boils down to perception, Perception, perception...For instance, say you look out the window...It's pouring down rain...To the farmer its great for the crops, but for someone riding a bike, well they're all wet...

There is no dualality just what is...No good, No bad, just what is REALITY.

Wrongness is in the eye of the beholder, and nowhere else...

Nothing is ever wrong, and nothing can be wrong...perfectly imperfect.

I have to be very honest and say I just don't know where the thoughts come from. They just pop up, and then tend to repeat themselves quite a lot. I think of them as being like a smoke alarm, drawing my attention to something that isn't quite right and needs to be seen to, a bit like the way pain highlights problems in the body. Of course something new always comes up for the mind to chew over, which is why I can kind of see it's a self-feeding machine that can never be satisfied in its current form. But as for seeing the wizard behind the screen who is making all this happen, I just don't know how or where to look.

Think of the mind like the sky... and thoughts are the clouds, they have no mass, they come and they go...there are big "Ominous" dark clouds and bunches of little ones ( kinda like "chatter.")   You can't reach up and whisk them away...
They just are...so let them be...( like the old Beatles song..."Let it be")

Now ask far as where to look?? Look around the room or when your out...That is real life...Except for the body, is there a "you" in real life??

So without all these thoughts in you head...WHAT''S LEFT?? LOOK??

[Martin1977]

First a quick inquiry - exactly who or what would you say imagined the self? Why is it so desperate to survive?

Anyway... So I still the thoughts, ignore them, let them pass and settle, observe the world around me calmly, without judgment, passive. It's nice, kind of relaxing, I'm just an animal whose eyes are taking in the world around him. But there's no falling away of reality as I knew it, no sudden "a-ha". Eventually another thought drifts in and I carry on as normal.

So if the self doesn't exist, what is it that makes us unique, different from each other? I know the characteristics of various people, their quirks, interests, humour, temperament etc. Am I not interacting with their "selfs" and they with mine? You say those things don't exist in real life, but aren't thoughts real? I sometimes know what other people are thinking... I forge friendships, romances, all kinds of relationships with people based on the sum of their mental parts, some combinations of which I like, some I don't.

Next, isn't some kind of self image necessary? Without it why would we care about anything? What motivation is there to live meaningfully? If I'm just another wave in the ocean like the next guy with no real identity of my own, what do I care about what happens to me? Is that not likely to result in me deciding that nothing matters at all and whatever happens is fine? How would I be different from the average homeless guy who has to accept the next kick from life because that's just how it is? I imagine an outlook where I can wash my hands of anything - the job, the relationship, the career, looking after the body... I just shrug and say "it works or it doesn't, no point thinking about it because actually "I don't exist." Isn't that a path to loneliness, poverty, redundancy, albeit I wouldn't care because I no longer feel attached to anything? Someone would say my life is screwed, but i could turn round and say it is all about perception, and I'm quite happy with what looks like a mess to the outside world.

Finally, without all the thoughts in my head there is silence, a certain clarity... but it doesn't last.

I'm giving an airing here to all the doubts and devil's advocates ideas in my head, so I'm getting pretty vigorous building the defence for the self I guess. Thank you for your patience.

[Cam-RT]

Good morning Martin...

exactly who or what would you say imagined the self? Why is it so desperate to survive?

Being liberated and having grand kids (To me) is a bit tough sometimes...Think about it, it starts when you're young. As you grow up you start off with identifying and connecting with the world around you. As soon as speech kicks in you use, "I, me and you" as a construct as a part of our daily language... Later you claim ownership and the like.

Sorta like a habit or an addiction the more you use it the more it go's unchallenged....Till now ;^)

Think about it as far as you can think back...Was there ever "REALLY"a YOU?----> Take a LOOK!!

So if the self doesn't exist, what is it that makes us unique, different from each other? I know the characteristics of various people, their quirks, interests, humour, temperament etc. Am I not interacting with their "selfs" and they with mine?

Of course everyone's body and life experiences are different, variety is the spice of life!! This is YOUR journey... Live it to the FULLEST! Don't let thoughts keep you from it!!

You say those things don't exist in real life, but aren't thoughts real?

Come on man!! you've seen this stuff on T.V. I'm sure... "Brain Scans" show it!! It"s just energy pulsing around your brain... Without the brain what are thoughts??

You Said your head cleared there was silence and clarity...What is "IT "??

Next, isn't some kind of self image necessary? Without it why would we care about anything? What motivation is there to live meaningfully? If I'm just another wave in the ocean like the next guy with no real identity of my own, what do I care about what happens to me?

Your not loosing Anything...This clearly is "The Self" attempting protect itself. Your seeing the illusion for what "it is" that's all...You're free to accomplish anything and aspire to "grab the brass ring" if you please. It's your choice when opportunity knocks...

Identity is what society imposes on you like the label "Cam or Martin" you're not any of these...

How would I be different from the average homeless guy who has to accept the next kick from life because that's just how it is?

Your Not...On the inside...LOOK!!...You are an "Entity", with awareness, in this life surviving temporarily within your body....THAT'S ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's where being humble kicks in, we are very fortunate to be where we are RIGHT NOW....
Maybe that Hobo is happy with things just the way they are?? If not he'll do what is necessary to survive or not! Just like The part you said about seeing thru an animals eye's...That's what its been about, from the very beginning of time...

[Martin1977]

Hi Cam

Think about it as far as you can think back...Was there ever "REALLY"a YOU?----> Take a LOOK!!

I look back and I can see a mental movie of the person I was, and I can recall some of the feelings I experienced. Some kind of entity that I think of as "me".

You spoke of the silence and clarity that is sometimes experienced when thoughts stop - is that what I'm working towards? Is that what liberation entails? A gradual easing of the mental noise until it stops entirely, and one day I realise I'm no longer troubled by the monkey mind? Or is it a more drastic, distinctive experience - a sudden reforming of reality that can't be mistaken for anything else?

The self seems very evasive and good at misdirecting me. It seems difficult to weed out an enemy I can't actually see. Like trying to prove a negative... like saying "Look, God doesn't exist. How do I know? Because I can't see him."

I can mentally accept I'm an entity surviving temporarily inside a body. I don't yet feel the fundamental shift away from clinging to some kind of ego.

On the plus side as I went about my business today I was pondering the pointers you gave me, and I did feel increasing calmness and clarity. Is that how it works, something that has to be slowly chipped at, focusing attention on the question until something deep within suddenly shifts?

I have moments where I feel like I'm just the animal observing the world dispassionately, but the "me" stuff always drifts back.

Thanks, Martin.

[Cam-RT]

Hey Martin...

Believe it or not, you're doing really well...Your close to the gate..

You spoke of the silence and clarity that is sometimes experienced when thoughts stop - is that what I'm working towards? Is that what liberation entails? A gradual easing of the mental noise until it stops entirely, and one day I realise I'm no longer troubled by the monkey mind? Or is it a more drastic, distinctive experience - a sudden reforming of reality that can't be mistaken for anything else?

What your experiencing on and off is "The Void" or what we the liberated call the sweet spot ;^).
The silence and the "vastness of nothing" behind all these thoughts...

But, like I say your close to the gate, but there's something lingering in your mind that's holding you back...

This is where alot of people sit and question...There's one kid who I've been working with who's at "the gate" and for months and presently is "dancing around' the gate asking dumb questions and saying he just not there yet...

***Don't get me wrong, your questions are certainly valid, and your "not" wasting my time...:^)

There comes a point though that you need to "Look" and "See" The Truth... And just LET GO...

The self seems very evasive and good at misdirecting me. It seems difficult to weed out an enemy I can't actually see. Like trying to prove a negative... like saying "Look, God doesn't exist. How do I know? Because I can't see him."

YES...There's nothing there!!!

This is where, you question everything that pops up, then dump all the crap, and LOOK...REALLY LOOK!

You don't Exist...Is this true??

YOU NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS TO YOUR VERY CORE...WITHOUT A DOUBT. And you will see...

How will you know?? This answer, is different for each individual...
In most cases I've noticed, It"s like a "pop" or a mental "triggering" and a great relief there after...

With me, It took far more work than necessary, but it took me by surprise and It felt and looked like it, just "dissolved" and then a rush of relief there after...

The friend that helped liberate me,( when it happened ) he said just "popped" and sent me a picture of himself that looked like he was smiling so big he was going to explode! And thereafter he was screaming and cursing that he was so happy!!

Others just feel a subtle shift and just go with the flow...

One last thing before go...

A gradual easing of the mental noise until it stops entirely, and one day I realise I'm no longer troubled by the monkey mind?

Well No, unfortunately...The minds job is to think, so you need to remember "The cloud analogy" and add this...
"You" are the sky...Everything else is just the weather...

Keep up the good work! Have Courage and DON'T GIVE UP!!!

[Martin1977]

Hi Cam, thanks for your words of encouragement

You don't Exist...Is this true??

YOU NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS TO YOUR VERY CORE...WITHOUT A DOUBT. And you will see...

I don't feel that yet. My tangled collection of thoughts and feelings still feel like a "me". If I think about my various life problems/issues, there is still a resonating, like a bad feeling in the stomach, or a throbbing behind the eyes. The body is still telling me these problems are mine, and I'm real.

I want to look, I want to see the truth and I want to let go, but I guess it can't be forced. I'm waiting for somethig to click.

With me, It took far more work than necessary,

What kind of work did you do? Is there something more I can be doing, some kind of mental exercise or visualisatiomn or whatever that can help this process alongh. I feel I'm a little passive at the moment. When thoughts start running ibn my head I catch them, stop them, tell myself it is just the self playing games. They go away for a while and come back later. It can feel like I'm trying to brainwash myself, pretending there's nothing to worry about because nothing in my head is real.

Is this what I should be doing? Catch every thought and dismiss it as fantasy? Am I aiming for a state where I walk around with nothing going on in my head at all? Just appreciation of the moment?

[Cam-RT]

Good morning Martin...

I Asked you a question....Have you called yourself out on this question?

You don't Exist...Is this true??

My tangled collection of thoughts and feelings still feel like a "me". If I think about my various life problems/issues, there is still a resonating, like a bad feeling in the stomach, or a throbbing behind the eyes. The body is still telling me these problems are mine, and I'm real.

I'm seeing a lot of I, me and mine, in this response...Who is "IT" that owns all this CRAP!?!?
You're so connected to these thoughts, that the body is following In tandem...See the connection? (or shall I say feel the connection?) This also works after liberation, the body doesn't lie...trace the feeling back to the thought and drag it out... Ask if it's the truth!...and move on. The mind is very seductive and draws us back in.

It can feel like I'm trying to brainwash myself, pretending there's nothing to worry about because nothing in my head is real.

Come on man, your looking for the Truth!! This is self inquiry...This is stuff that's in Your head. All I'm asking is....
IS IT REAL??... Do your thoughts exist outside of your head??------->THEY'RE JUST PULSES OF ENERGY<------------

Is this what I should be doing? Catch every thought and dismiss it as fantasy?

Thoughts are empty projections of "The Self"...Their objective is to "Occupy" us not to defeat us...
Thoughts scream for attention, and tend to build on the energy/attention you pay to it...That's what the truth is all about! Inquire and it's seen for what it is...projections from NOTHING...

What kind of work did you do? Is there something more I can be doing, some kind of mental exercise or visualisatiomn or whatever that can help this process alongh.

You still are very connected to your thoughts keep this in mind as you move on here...

You can read what I went thru on my blog, but I don't recommend doing it (http://cam-rt.blogspot.com/) what I went thru was in the two posts..."who is I"...and ... "The I must die."

There is one other thing you can try is...Die before you die...

Jed Mckenna once said one of the most profound and humbling experiences one can have, is witnessing the death of another person...

Before I begin to explain this, I want to stress that in fact there's nothing to fear, nor does this refer to the contemplation of suicide in any way...call it a disclaimer if you wish, but if done properly it can aid in liberation and in the understanding and interpretation of death..."You can try this at home." ;^)

Alright, now please attempt this uninterrupted...pick a quite time and spot...( preferably in a bed.) Okay, now "project" your self in the future (Don't pretend...but visualize this being as real as possible.) and you're approaching death, and alone in this exercise. (Not in a horrible situation.) You've lived a full life, and accepted the fact death is imminent....Now think....your body is weakening...Your mind is letting go...  Tell me the rest of the "Experience"....
What is it that is left at this moment of complete loss? The letting go of life??

Memento Mori... To live with death in front us.

Have Courage...you'll be just fine.

[Martin1977]

From the death exercise I got a sense of peace, a feeling that I had been occupied by things that didn't really matter that much throughout life. Current reality slowly drifts back though.

I'm seeing a lot of I, me and mine, in this response...Who is "IT" that owns all this CRAP!?!?

I guess no one does. I do feel I have a better sense of these things arising on their own. I agree that the thoughts are just flickers of energy that only exist in my head. I see it's just junk bbbing to the urface of its own accord with no master calling the shots.

You don't Exist...Is this true??

In truth, I feel like my intellectual understanding of this is sharpening, but the mental "pop" hasn't yet followed. I plan to try the death exercise as I go to sleep now and see if I can take my visualisation deeper than during the previous effort.

[Cam-RT]

Good evening Martin...

From the death exercise I got a sense of peace, a feeling that I had been occupied by things that didn't really matter that much throughout life. Current reality slowly drifts back though.

That's a good start... What about just prior to death?..."The Letting go".

I'm seeing a lot of I, me and mine, in this response...Who is "IT" that owns all this CRAP!?!?

I guess no one does.------- I see it's just junk bbbing to the urface of its own accord with no master calling the shots.

Yea, you got it intellectually, but there's something else in the way... Just agreeing with logic isn't going to make this happen...keep going...Even after you see it, the key word in liberation AND the Truth is "FURTHER".

Hey, even as hard as I tried, it just sorta hit and took me by surprise, and I waited a couple of day's just to make sure, before I asked to be confirmed...

[Martin1977]

What about just prior to death?..."The Letting go".

U'm not sure i can surrender myself to the exercise enough to fuly get a sense of how I feel about letting go. I feel peaceful, but I don't feel any of the fear I or doubt you might expect when facing death. It feels more like a relaxation exercise. The mind also tends to wander to other stories and memories when I try to focus on my upcoming death. I am able to focus on body sensations as I observe my "dying" body.

a, you got it intellectually, but there's something else in the way... Just agreeing with logic isn't going to make this happen...keep going...Even after you see it, the key word in liberation AND the Truth is "FURTHER".

I do feel I am close to in intellectually, but I'm not sure about how to go further. If I see it but don't feel the inner shift, I feel like all I can do is wait and keep observing my thougts, reminding myself about the self's games until realisation overcomes me. It feels like mental training which can be good for stopping mind chatter but isn't yet suggesting a deep shift beyond my cnscious control.

[Cam-RT]

Good Afternoon Martin...

The letting go is referring to the "shift" from all you know...To nothing.
The loss of everything around you... Like I said there's NOTHING to fear..AT ALL..

The mind also tends to wander to other stories and memories when I try to focus on my upcoming death. I am able to focus on body sensations as I observe my "dying" body.

The body is secondary in this excercise...and focus should be at that moment where the mind let's go, just prior to where conciousness ends and what ever beliefs of what might come after death...<----remember what I said. Beliefs have no place in this work...

I feel like all I can do is wait and keep observing my thougts, reminding myself about the self's games until realisation overcomes me.

Push past your thoughts!!! They're nothing but distractions...GO THERE!!! Just BE!!

Some have referred to this as falling down the "rabbit hole" (remember Alice? ;^) ya, it's a bit cryptic...but at the root of it...It points at the hole...you're sitting on the edge...you're looking inside you can't see the bottom...You're asking questions, How deep is it?, what's at the bottom??, ect... Same thing but death is, and will be, very REAL...