Only the known

[Demiurge]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The mind experiences a stream of sensations in the various sense fields, including thoughts. It overlays a conceptual framework on this stream in the form of images and stories. One of these stories is that there is a seperate and real agent called "I" which navigates and controls aspects of this stream.

What are you looking for at LU?
A guide to help question my beliefs and assumptions. A community of people so that I can feel that I am not working alone in this. Someone that can help me see where there is further work or questioning to be done.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone to have a back-n-forth with to help me clear up some sticky points, such as identification re stories around strong emotions, like fear. Someone that has experience in how to surrender or accept the emotional aspects of awakening.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
7 years meditation
Daily inquiry

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Demiurge, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU. Let me know your name if you'd like me to call you that (unless you want me to keep saying Demiurge).

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.

For our investigation, orient towards DE. Thought and language are very useful tools to attempt to communicate our DE to each other, but over time we've reified things such as love, hate, bond, communism etc.. It is important to initially recognise that these concepts only exist within thought, and many concepts don't point to anything in DE. If I say "sensation of your tongue", you know what I'm referring to in DE (sense of touch). If I say "demon", there is no DE this refers to, you can only conjure up the thought of a demon. If I say "relationship", does such a thing exist in DE or only in thought?

The mind experiences a stream of sensations in the various sense fields, including thoughts. It overlays a conceptual framework on this stream in the form of images and stories. One of these stories is that there is a seperate and real agent called "I" which navigates and controls aspects of this stream.

Are these not just things that you've learnt? What is this "mind" you speak of? Look for the "mind" that experiences the stream of sensations and tell me what you find. If you come up with a thought answer when you're looking for it, note it is a thought and let it go. Continue looking for this "mind" you speak of. If you have the thought "this is useless! the mind can't find itself!", note that this is a thought and let it go. If you have a doubt like "am I doing this right?", note that this is a thought and let it go. Keep returning to this search for the mind while letting go of thoughts. As more thoughts are seen through, the gaps between thoughts will grow longer and longer. Return to the search "Where is the mind?"

Tell me how your experience goes. Can you find a mind? What do you find? What is there when there are no thoughts?

[Demiurge]

Hi Tyler

You are welcome to call me Charlie. Thanks for the response.

Indeed I cannot find anything called the mind. When I do the suggested exercise, when there are no thoughts there seems to just be a stream or mix of different sensations (heat, pressure, colours etc).

[ty0]

Hey Charlie, nice to meet ya.

When there are no thoughts, is there an awareness of the sensations/colours/what-not? Does it feel like all of these objects are being perceived by a subject/experiencer?

If so, look for that one. "Where am I?" "Where are these sensations felt from?" Again, we're not looking for a thought answer. Notice and let go of thoughts. Look for something concrete.

[Demiurge]

Hi Tyler

This has been a nice investigation. When I ask, "where are these sensations felt from", I get the feeling that there is some kind of centre that everything comes into. Its as if my experience happens within a space and its all being experienced from the centre of that space. But then it sometimes feels flat, since it seems that the 3d aspect of it I am not perceiving directly (there is only a front, in some sense)

[ty0]

Hey Charlie

But then it sometimes feels flat, since it seems that the 3d aspect of it I am not perceiving directly (there is only a front, in some sense)

Certainly there's no 3D-ness to be found without thought

When I ask, "where are these sensations felt from", I get the feeling that there is some kind of centre that everything comes into. Its as if my experience happens within a space and its all being experienced from the centre of that space.

I want you to go towards that centre. What is the nature of this place? How is it experienced? Is it a "place"? Does anything tell you that the senses are experienced from this "place"?

If you imagine a "space" in which experience takes place and you can see the centre of it from which experiences are experienced from, where are you seeing this space from? Can you be the centre if you can perceive the centre? Can this "space" exist without thought? Explore the centre and see if there's anything that it actually is within your experience that isn't a thought.

Try to sink into this if you can and let me know what comes up.