Where do I go from here?

[Shubo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there's no separate me and what we consider as ourselves are an illusion. Thoughts create the illusion of separate selves. This is not innate to us but stems from years of conditioning. The truth is clear and available to us all but our thoughts, doubts and seeking prevent us from directly realizing it.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see the absolute truth – to see what life is all about, how we are all connected, the mysteries of the universe, to see through the illusion and see how thoughts create illusions. I would like help from someone who has experienced awakening as to how to approach it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to receive direct pointings that'll help me see my true nature. I understand it's all on me and nobody else can do it for me. There's a lot of information out there and if the guide can help me figure out the right path – a path that is appropriate – that would be great.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating since 2016, I have to admit not too seriously, to relieve anxiety.

Early this year I came upon a Youtube video where an ordinary person describes his awakening and I became really interested. I used to think you have to be a special chosen person or live in a monastery and practice years on end to wake up. Admittedly I was interested in removing my suffering but I was also more interested in finding out the whole truth.

I've been watching Angelo DiLullo's Youtube videos and read his book "Awake It's Your Turn" and read "Three pillars of Zen" and first started with self inquiry "Who am I" but had a hard time and switched to the Zen Koan Mu and have been working on it since May. I went to a meditation retreat that emphasized Koan for a week in June and have been going to a Zen temple on Sundays.

I have been meditation 1.5 hours in the morning and 1.5 hours in the evening. While I'm not meditating I try to ask myself the question "What is Mu" as much as possible. It hasn't been easy, considering the job and daily life but I try. Sometimes doubts, boredom and confusion get in the way but I try to let it happen and carry on with the question as well as I can.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Al lot of what you've already done may help. Some of it may confuse you, too.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Shubo]

Hi Stacy,

Nice to meet you, Stacy. My name is Yong. Yes, I'd appreciate it if you can guide me.

Here are my answers:

How will life change?

I am not quite sure but I imagine life will go on, going to work and taking care of responsibilities. But hopefully things will get easier since my mind won't get in the way and I will be seeing the life as it is without interpretation.

How will you change?

Again, I'm not sure. I try not to imagine the future but if I have to guess: Whether joy or pain, sadness or pain I will feel fully, without reservation. No blocking of painful emotions and clinging for what I deem to be preferable. I will gain equanimity. Feel closer to people. Maybe some relationships, hobbies and other situations will change if they are based on false narrative or clinging? I don't know.

What will be different?

Similar to the previous question, I hope to see the things as exactly as they are, without filtering or adding anything. Accept things as they are.

What is missing?

What is missing currently? Peacefulness, The absolute truth whatever that is. Equanimity.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me Yong. My time zone is PST (Pacific Standard Time). I'm in Los Angeles, California, USA

Thank you,

Yong

[Anastacia42]

Hi Yong,

Some of your expectations are a little high, but with additional work, you can see how it goes. Seeing there is no "self" is just the beginning.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


I'm in Colorado.

Loving ,

[Shubo]

Hi Stacy,

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

I’m curious as to what it feels like when no self is fully realized. It is hard to imagine. Before I felt sad and a bit scared thinking about it, like I was going to die but now I’m more or less fine about it. I’m more curious than anything right now.

Yong

[Anastacia42]

Curious is good. Yes, that question checks for fears. Let me know if you want a pointer to help you through that if it seems strong or difficult.

Here is the full Colored Socks pointer with HTML Marking and line spaces between paragraphs to make it easier to read.


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Shubo]

Good morning Stacy,

Yes, I understand what Direct Experience is. One thing though the visions you have while meditating is that direct experience? They appear hyper realistic.

Yong

[Anastacia42]

No. Those are thoughts. You cannot see them hear them touch them or feel them in the 3D we call reality

Let's see if you've got it...


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Shubo]

Hi Stacy,

When I read your message I see words and sentences. And I understand what you’re saying but there doesn’t seem to be any thoughts (unless I have active thoughts). Or is understanding the same as thinking?

Yong

[Anastacia42]

Yes, understanding is a form of thought. See my sig line quote.

We are ignoring thoughts. They don't usually go away.

Please do the exercise as instructed.It is only the first of several. We are showing you how to pay attention only to direct experience.

Thank you.

[Shubo]

Hi Stacy,

Ok I get it. Thanks.

Yong

[Shubo]

Hi Stacy,

Here's a list so far:

Seeing prepared lunch, simply = image/color
Picking up the plate and feel the warmness of the plate, simply = sensation
Fork makes a sound, simply = sound
See the fork, simply = image/color
Lift up drink, feel the coldness of glass, simply = sensation
Drink/taste, simply = taste
Smelling the drink, simply = smell
Look at the food, simply = image/color
Use fork to lift food, sensing the coldness of the metal, simply = sensation
Also hear the sound of the fork, simply = sound
Eat the food, first feel the warm temperature of the food, simply = sensation
Then taste the food, simply = taste
Then smell the food, simply = smell
Hear the sound of food chewing, simply = sound
Fork makes a sound when put on the table, simply = sound
Thought about what happened so far, simply = thought
Lift up drink, feel the coldness of glass, simply = sensation
Drink/taste, simply = taste
Smelling the drink, simply = smell
Look at the dog, simply = image/color
Thoughts about how cute she is, simply = thought
Feel the coolness of dog's nose my my left, simply = sensation
Feel the bottom of my food touching the floor, simply = sensation
Decide whether to offer dog some scraps, simply = thought
See napkin, simply = image/color
Wipe my mouth with the napkin, feeling it on my lips, simply = sensation
Hear the sound of the napkin scrapping against my lips, simply = sound
Think about things to do this afternoon, simply = thought
Think about how there are a lot of events involved in just eating lunch, simply = thought

Yong

[Anastacia42]

Yes, good.

Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Loving,

[Shubo]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
Without the "I" it feels more spontaneous and truer.

2. What is here without labels?
Mostly the pure experience without interpretation.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Labels seems to affect the experience as it goes through thinking/judgment

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
Maybe my body felt a little more open when "I" is not involved? It was subtle and I'm not quite sure. I wanted it to be more pronounced.

[Anastacia42]

Good, you're partly right. Looking matters more than right answers. but let's look at this:

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Labels seems to affect the experience as it goes through thinking/judgment

(please get used to Quoting the question with the answer under it. You will need to do that on "final" questions later. Instructions& a video are near the bottom of that first post.)

Labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Loving