What am I?

[Sosimplyme]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean that there is no more identification to the personal story that defines me, this belief is gone. There is a seeing through the illusion of a separate self, so experience merges into one. There is no separate me in an external world of objects. There is a seeing through the illusionary boundary created to protect the self.

What are you looking for at LU?
For pointers given my particular history and orientation. To speak to someone who has crossed the threshold and could guide me in dialogue. I think this is more powerful than reading books and the guidance is adapted to my journey. I think that LU could challenge me in ways that I could not, and bring things up that otherwise I would not face.

I am looking for the truth, as I experience it with the least filters possible. I am hoping LU could point out my blind spots that are preventing me from seeing the truth because of fear and expectation.

I am tired of living in a mind-identified world. I have faith that an alternative is possible, that my story doesn't define me. That it is possible to live completely in the present, where life is infinitely rich, deep and unknowable. That it is possible to let go of resistance and just be, letting life through me where ever it wants go.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Surprises, to be a bit shocked into the truth, to open avenues I did not think of. To be pointed to the direction to the truth. I am hoping that the conversations shows me what my core beliefs are which prevent me from seeing the truth of who I am.

I expect the conversations to lead to deep introspection that helps me to awaken.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating regularly for about 5 years, attend a couple of vipassana retreats. It feels like I am constantly seeking, there is little rest from this. I do inquiry occasionally in meditation and daily life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ty0]

Hi Sosimplyme, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU.

For pointers given my particular history and orientation.

And what's your particular history and orientation?

I am looking for the truth

What's the truth? Why do you think truth exists? What does it mean for something to be true?

That it is possible to live completely in the present

What do you mean by this? I'm not sure it's possible NOT to live completely in the present? Where else would you live, in the past?

where life is infinitely rich, deep and unknowable.

Are these just words you've heard thrown around by random spiritual teachers and gurus? What do you actually want? Do you even know what you're looking for?

I am hoping that the conversations shows me what my core beliefs are which prevent me from seeing the truth of who I am.

Without your beliefs, who would you be??

[Sosimplyme]

Hi Sosimplyme, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU.

Hi Tyler nice to meet you. Please see my answers below.

For pointers given my particular history and orientation.

And what's your particular history and orientation?
I do mainly Buddhist meditation based on the book The Mind Illuminated and other mindfulness books. I also attend vipassana retreats and do psychedelics (mainly Ayahuasca). I had a non-dual experience with 5 meodmt (toad) which blew my mind. I think inquiry is really powerful. I sometimes drop questions into my meditation. Where am I ? What is missing from this moment ? And had some shifts trying some exercise from Douglas Harding ( more than 1 year ago), which seems to have lasted till this day.

I am looking for the truth

What's the truth? Why do you think truth exists? What does it mean for something to be true?
1. I think the truth just is what is happening now. There is no space between the truth and knowing the truth, no time for a recognition of the truth. The truth is independent of what you think of it to be.

2. That is a tough one. I have had some experiences that feel more true, there is more awareness a deeper knowing, being more in the present and less lost in thought. There is a belief that the truth exists picked up from what I heard.

3. If it is not false. If your understanding aligns to what is actually happening. If that is the way it is. For example it is true that I will die no matter what. This is a true statement.

That it is possible to live completely in the present

What do you mean by this? I'm not sure it's possible NOT to live completely in the present? Where else would you live, in the past?
I agree that it is not possible not to live in the present, since the present is all there is, though I think sometimes (most times for me) we get lost in thought worlds, away from the physical senses. What I mean is I would like to be in my physical senses, not lost in a story. I am very aware of the difference between "lost in thought" and being here in my body.

You can't live in the past, but it is possible to identify with a concept (set of beliefs/thoughts which are identified with) of the past in the present.

where life is infinitely rich, deep and unknowable.

Are these just words you've heard thrown around by random spiritual teachers and gurus? What do you actually want? Do you even know what you're looking for?
Maybe I heard them from someone. I can't recall. My search started with a sense of a complete lack of meaning in life. It was a gradual fading away of meaning. I realised that there was no meaning to anything, job, car, relationships. Everything ends, and suffering is inevitable. I became very depressed but could not shake off the loss of meaning. I turned to philosophy, eventually finding Marcus Aurelius, meditations, which I read every morning. From there to meditation where I found some temporary peace from the loss in meaning. Meditation did not provide a permanent shift out this mind-identified suffering. So I am looking for complete acceptance of this suffering, to give up any resistance to life I have.

My mind is constantly seeking something else than what is happening, peace, freedom. Going on retreat after retreat. I want this seeking to stop.

I am hoping that the conversations shows me what my core beliefs are which prevent me from seeing the truth of who I am.

Without your beliefs, who would you be??

A belief is a thought I have identified with. It depends which beliefs I give up. Without the belief in separation I would be more open to life, less guarded. I would not be.

[ty0]

Nice to meet you too. What's your name?

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.

Try this before you read on:
Use meditation to quiet the mind. Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. If you have doubts about doing this correctly, note that even the doubts are just thoughts. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"

How much of your reality is really just thought?

I think the truth just is what is happening now.

Then how can you look for it if you think it's already what's happening?

There is no space between the truth and knowing the truth, no time for a recognition of the truth.

Then why would you look for it if you think if you can't recognise it?

The truth is independent of what you think of it to be.

Which part of your experience is independent of what you think it to be? DE or thought? And what about "truth"? Is "truth" DE or thought?

If it is not false. If your understanding aligns to what is actually happening. If that is the way it is. For example it is true that I will die no matter what. This is a true statement.

Why is that a true statement? How can you actually know that? Because it's common knowledge that everyone dies, therefore you will die no matter what? To a religious person, they would respond saying "God is real" is a true statement. What does that tell you about "truth" and "true statements"?

My search started with a sense of a complete lack of meaning in life.

Is your search just a means to run away from the feelings that arise when you sit with the fact that life has no meaning? Is this a way for you to cope with that? Can you drop in "Life has no meaning" as a mantra during meditation and sit with whatever emotions arise?

So I am looking for complete acceptance of this suffering, to give up any resistance to life I have.

Then give up. You can't FIND acceptance. You can't give up as long as you're still looking for it. It's like you're running and you tell me you want to stop running so you have to keep running until you find a way to stop running. Just stop.

My mind is constantly seeking something else than what is happening, peace, freedom.

Sorry, there's nothing else. This is it. Peace and freedom are thoughts. "Something else" is already a thought, a concept. You're just imagining things and then imagining yourself chasing after these things. What are you without the chase? What purpose or meaning is there to life without this chase?

[Sosimplyme]

Nice to meet you too. What's your name?

I am JB, thanks for guiding :). It is really helpful to actual investigate why I am doing this search.

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.

Try this before you read on:
Use meditation to quiet the mind. Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. If you have doubts about doing this correctly, note that even the doubts are just thoughts. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"

How much of your reality is really just thought?

After doing the exercise, there is a lot of my reality that is DE, however thought seems to come after each DE when labelling "not thought". I tried looking for the gap between the labelling "not thought" and the DE. It is as if when I look into DE, a subtle thought gets added. For example, hearing a car, there is an instant of hearing, assessment of distance, picture of car, then label "not thought". The subtle thoughts are very quick. It is as if trying to get closer to DE puts more thought in between. In summary, there is a lot of my experience that is DE, though thought seems to stick to every DE, coming the instant after DE.

I think the truth just is what is happening now.

Then how can you look for it if you think it's already what's happening?

There is a belief that I need to be more aware to see the truth. After meditating for a few days my awareness gets heighted and I can feel more subtle sensations in the body. There is belief that by increasing the strength of my awareness, I will see reality/truth at a more fundamental level. So I am looking to be super aware and somehow hit on the fundamental building blocks of reality.

There is no space between the truth and knowing the truth, no time for a recognition of the truth.

Then why would you look for it if you think if you can't recognise it?
I believe that somehow a gap will appear, like a cessation event referred to in Buddhism, I will try and try and the mind will finally give up, and the truth will be recognised. This is based on enlightenment stories I have heard.

The truth is independent of what you think of it to be.

Which part of your experience is independent of what you think it to be? DE or thought? And what about "truth"? Is "truth" DE or thought?
DE is independent of what you think it to be, though thoughts also just appear and I can't control them. I would say truth is DE without the filter of thought.

If it is not false. If your understanding aligns to what is actually happening. If that is the way it is. For example it is true that I will die no matter what. This is a true statement.

Why is that a true statement? How can you actually know that? Because it's common knowledge that everyone dies, therefore you will die no matter what? To a religious person, they would respond saying "God is real" is a true statement. What does that tell you about "truth" and "true statements"?

Yes, since I am human being and every other human, say 150 years ago, has died and everything is impermanent. I guess it is an inductive proof, perhaps immortality will be discovered in my life. Good point, truth and true statements are different. Truth is impossible to describe but true statements can be verified through empirical analysis.

My search started with a sense of a complete lack of meaning in life.

Is your search just a means to run away from the feelings that arise when you sit with the fact that life has no meaning? Is this a way for you to cope with that? Can you drop in "Life has no meaning" as a mantra during meditation and sit with whatever emotions arise?
Yes, the search did give meaning where there was a lack of meaning. The "no meaning" statement has little effect on me now. I have come to understand that it makes as much sense as saying life has meaning, these are just words. Also, meaning can't exist without "no meaning". In a way life without meaning is more meaningful since you not living life as a means to something else.

So I am looking for complete acceptance of this suffering, to give up any resistance to life I have.

Then give up. You can't FIND acceptance. You can't give up as long as you're still looking for it. It's like you're running and you tell me you want to stop running so you have to keep running until you find a way to stop running. Just stop.
Easier said than done :)...the search feels like it is not in my control.

My mind is constantly seeking something else than what is happening, peace, freedom.

Sorry, there's nothing else. This is it. Peace and freedom are thoughts. "Something else" is already a thought, a concept. You're just imagining things and then imagining yourself chasing after these things. What are you without the chase? What purpose or meaning is there to life without this chase?
This takes me back to question "what is wrong with what is happening now ?" or "how could I improve my experience of the present?" When I ask these questions they take me right into the present, there is no more chase and life can't be improved beyond what I am experience, because I can't provide a genuine answer to these questions when really look into the present. Without the chase I am totally here in whatever is being experienced. The purpose is whatever is happening now. In fact the question of what is the meaning of life makes no sense if there is no more chasing.

[ty0]

After meditating for a few days my awareness gets heighted and I can feel more subtle sensations in the body. There is belief that by increasing the strength of my awareness, I will see reality/truth at a more fundamental level. So I am looking to be super aware and somehow hit on the fundamental building blocks of reality.

So why are you here? Why not test your theory and meditate until you're hyper-aware and attain enlightenment? Maybe reality/truth is hiding as a subtle sensation in one of your toes LOL.

I believe that somehow a gap will appear, like a cessation event referred to in Buddhism, I will try and try and the mind will finally give up, and the truth will be recognised. This is based on enlightenment stories I have heard.

Throw everything you've heard out the window. If you really believe this, you would be meditating instead of reading my answers to you anyway. There's no enlightenment for you in the future. The future doesn't even exist. Enlightenment doesn't even exist. You imagine some kind of goal and then you imagine yourself chasing after that goal. You're making it all up in your head! As long as you're chasing it, you can't get it! And there's no "it" to get, you're just imagining it! You're spouting off ideas like truth and fundamental building blocks of reality, don't you see these are just ideas?

I would say truth is DE without the filter of thought.

Boom, if you wanted an answer, now you've given yourself an answer. Happy? Satisfied? DE without thought is pretty attainable through consistent awareness practice. If that's your goal, go for it. Come on, WHAT IS TRUTH? Say truth 10 times. Truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth. Is there a thing called truth? What is truth, REALLY?

Good point, truth and true statements are different. Truth is impossible to describe but true statements can be verified through empirical analysis.

I'm not trying to say they're different. What makes something true?

I have come to understand that it makes as much sense as saying life has meaning, these are just words.

And what's not just words?

[Sosimplyme]

After meditating for a few days my awareness gets heighted and I can feel more subtle sensations in the body. There is belief that by increasing the strength of my awareness, I will see reality/truth at a more fundamental level. So I am looking to be super aware and somehow hit on the fundamental building blocks of reality.

So why are you here? Why not test your theory and meditate until you're hyper-aware and attain enlightenment? Maybe reality/truth is hiding as a subtle sensation in one of your toes LOL.

As part of me doubts whether this is true. Some people have meditated for years, and still have not attained a permanent shift in identity. Thinking about it, why would a more subtle sensation be more true than a gross one. Perhaps it is more about stilling the mind, then again why is stillness more true than movement ?

I believe that somehow a gap will appear, like a cessation event referred to in Buddhism, I will try and try and the mind will finally give up, and the truth will be recognised. This is based on enlightenment stories I have heard.

Throw everything you've heard out the window. If you really believe this, you would be meditating instead of reading my answers to you anyway. There's no enlightenment for you in the future. The future doesn't even exist. Enlightenment doesn't even exist. You imagine some kind of goal and then you imagine yourself chasing after that goal. You're making it all up in your head! As long as you're chasing it, you can't get it! And there's no "it" to get, you're just imagining it! You're spouting off ideas like truth and fundamental building blocks of reality, don't you see these are just ideas?

Yes and by imagining enlightenment in the future I am creating a gap, like a donkey chasing a carrot. I have to ask myself why did I get into this loophole in the first place ? Why are there so many spiritual seekers that give up everything to find the truth ? Are they deluded ? They give up their families which causes suffering for what ?

I would say truth is DE without the filter of thought.

Boom, if you wanted an answer, now you've given yourself an answer. Happy? Satisfied? DE without thought is pretty attainable through consistent awareness practice. If that's your goal, go for it. Come on, WHAT IS TRUTH? Say truth 10 times. Truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth. Is there a thing called truth? What is truth, REALLY?

Can you please be specific on consistent practice ? How much practice is required ?

I am mostly happy with DE without thought, though once practice stops this skill diminishes, the best would be a permanent shift, which I take to be enlightenment.

Good point, truth and true statements are different. Truth is impossible to describe but true statements can be verified through empirical analysis.

I'm not trying to say they're different. What makes something true?
If you believe it ? or everyone agrees that a concept links to a certain DE e.g. everyone agreeing that the sun is yellow, though my yellow and your yellow might be experienced differently, as long as the letters are attached to some shared external experience then it is true. Feels very complicated.

I have come to understand that it makes as much sense as saying life has meaning, these are just words.

And what's not just words?

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

[Sosimplyme]

After meditating for a few days my awareness gets heighted and I can feel more subtle sensations in the body. There is belief that by increasing the strength of my awareness, I will see reality/truth at a more fundamental level. So I am looking to be super aware and somehow hit on the fundamental building blocks of reality.

So why are you here? Why not test your theory and meditate until you're hyper-aware and attain enlightenment? Maybe reality/truth is hiding as a subtle sensation in one of your toes LOL.

As part of me doubts whether this is true. Some people have meditated for years, and still have not attained a permanent shift in identity. Thinking about it, why would a more subtle sensation be more true than a gross one. Perhaps it is more about stilling the mind, then again why is stillness more true than movement ?

I believe that somehow a gap will appear, like a cessation event referred to in Buddhism, I will try and try and the mind will finally give up, and the truth will be recognised. This is based on enlightenment stories I have heard.

Throw everything you've heard out the window. If you really believe this, you would be meditating instead of reading my answers to you anyway. There's no enlightenment for you in the future. The future doesn't even exist. Enlightenment doesn't even exist. You imagine some kind of goal and then you imagine yourself chasing after that goal. You're making it all up in your head! As long as you're chasing it, you can't get it! And there's no "it" to get, you're just imagining it! You're spouting off ideas like truth and fundamental building blocks of reality, don't you see these are just ideas?

Yes and by imagining enlightenment in the future I am creating a gap, like a donkey chasing a carrot. I have to ask myself why did I get into this loophole in the first place ? Why are there so many spiritual seekers that give up everything to find the truth ? Are they deluded ? They give up their families which causes suffering for what ?

I would say truth is DE without the filter of thought.

Boom, if you wanted an answer, now you've given yourself an answer. Happy? Satisfied? DE without thought is pretty attainable through consistent awareness practice. If that's your goal, go for it. Come on, WHAT IS TRUTH? Say truth 10 times. Truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth. Is there a thing called truth? What is truth, REALLY?

Can you please be specific on consistent practice ? How much practice is required ?

I am mostly happy with DE without thought, though once practice stops this skill diminishes, the best would be a permanent shift, which I take to be enlightenment.

Good point, truth and true statements are different. Truth is impossible to describe but true statements can be verified through empirical analysis.

I'm not trying to say they're different. What makes something true?
If you believe it ? or everyone agrees that a concept links to a certain DE e.g. everyone agreeing that the sun is yellow, though my yellow and your yellow might be experienced differently, as long as the letters are attached to some shared external experience then it is true. Feels very complicated.

I have come to understand that it makes as much sense as saying life has meaning, these are just words.

And what's not just words?

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

[Sosimplyme]

So why are you here? Why not test your theory and meditate until you're hyper-aware and attain enlightenment? Maybe reality/truth is hiding as a subtle sensation in one of your toes LOL.

As part of me doubts whether this is true. Some people have meditated for years, and still have not attained a permanent shift in identity. Thinking about it, why would a more subtle sensation be more true than a gross one. Perhaps it is more about stilling the mind, then again why is stillness more true than movement ?

Throw everything you've heard out the window. If you really believe this, you would be meditating instead of reading my answers to you anyway. There's no enlightenment for you in the future. The future doesn't even exist. Enlightenment doesn't even exist. You imagine some kind of goal and then you imagine yourself chasing after that goal. You're making it all up in your head! As long as you're chasing it, you can't get it! And there's no "it" to get, you're just imagining it! You're spouting off ideas like truth and fundamental building blocks of reality, don't you see these are just ideas?

Yes and by imagining enlightenment in the future I am creating a gap, like a donkey chasing a carrot. I have to ask myself why did I get into this loophole in the first place ? Why are there so many spiritual seekers that give up everything to find the truth ? Are they deluded ? They give up their families which causes suffering for what ?

Boom, if you wanted an answer, now you've given yourself an answer. Happy? Satisfied? DE without thought is pretty attainable through consistent awareness practice. If that's your goal, go for it. Come on, WHAT IS TRUTH? Say truth 10 times. Truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth truth. Is there a thing called truth? What is truth, REALLY?

Can you please be specific on consistent practice ? How much practice is required ?
I am mostly happy with DE without thought, though once practice stops this skill diminishes, the best would be a permanent shift, which I take to be enlightenment.
Truth is just a word.

I'm not trying to say they're different. What makes something true?
If you believe it ? or everyone agrees that a concept links to a certain DE e.g. everyone agreeing that the sun is yellow, though my yellow and your yellow might be experienced differently, as long as the letters are attached to some shared external experience then it is true. Feels very complicated.

And what's not just words?

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

[Sosimplyme]

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

[ty0]

Can you please be specific on consistent practice ? How much practice is required ?

I am mostly happy with DE without thought, though once practice stops this skill diminishes, the best would be a permanent shift, which I take to be enlightenment.

The amount differs for everyone. You can do it through whac-a-mole, vipassana, simple breath meditation etc. There's no such thing as permanently experiencing DE without thought though, and I certainly wouldn't call that enlightenment. You seem to have something against thoughts, what's wrong with having thoughts?

Why are there so many spiritual seekers that give up everything to find the truth ?

Because they want to stop suffering. Why do you seek?

Perhaps it is more about stilling the mind, then again why is stillness more true than movement ?

It's not more true than movement. DE is not "better" than thought. But stillness is very useful, so do some more whac-a-mole hahahah.

Truth is just a word.

Ahahahahh. It's just a thought, isn't it? And what's not a thought? What is all this seeking? What are you? What is your entire life? How do you believe all the nonsense thoughts that go through your head? Don't you see you're making all this shit up? Look around! This is it! Anything other than this is a thought. Your stories just get so confounded and tangled up that you start to genuinely believe there's some kind of problem and that you can somehow fix it.

If you believe it ?

Stop there. That's all, it doesn't matter what the consensus is. If you believe something, it's true. So then the value of truth kinda plummets, doesn't it?

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

I'm telling you lots of funny things, but you have to go verify them for yourself. There are non-verbal concepts though. Go look and see. What's not a thought?

[Sosimplyme]

Tyler, I am really amazed at how quickly you answer my questions and the time you have put into this for a complete stranger ! Wow.

Can you please be specific on consistent practice ? How much practice is required ?

I am mostly happy with DE without thought, though once practice stops this skill diminishes, the best would be a permanent shift, which I take to be enlightenment.

The amount differs for everyone. You can do it through whac-a-mole, vipassana, simple breath meditation etc. There's no such thing as permanently experiencing DE without thought though, and I certainly wouldn't call that enlightenment. You seem to have something against thoughts, what's wrong with having thoughts?
The issue I have with thoughts is that it is easy to get lost in them, and get sucked into a loop of suffering. Maybe the issue is about believing a thought (which is another thought). When life is quiet or in retreats thoughts slow down which feels pleasant, as thoughts can be agitating. I plan a lot or rehash the past which is unpleasant.

Why are there so many spiritual seekers that give up everything to find the truth ?

Because they want to stop suffering. Why do you seek?
For the same reason. There is also some curiosity. What is this ? Why do we exist ? etc. which has been with me since I can remember. When I was about 4 years old, I remember watching TV and having the thought that we are looking into another world and thinking is someone looking into our world, like we are looking into the world inside the TV ?

Perhaps it is more about stilling the mind, then again why is stillness more true than movement ?

It's not more true than movement. DE is not "better" than thought. But stillness is very useful, so do some more whac-a-mole hahahah.
Thanks for that. I can't seem to stop sitting in meditation for about 2 hours per day.

Truth is just a word.

Ahahahahh. It's just a thought, isn't it? And what's not a thought? What is all this seeking? What are you? What is your entire life? How do you believe all the nonsense thoughts that go through your head? Don't you see you're making all this shit up? Look around! This is it! Anything other than this is a thought. Your stories just get so confounded and tangled up that you start to genuinely believe there's some kind of problem and that you can somehow fix it.
True.Right now I am sitting typing. My whole past and imagined future is a thought happening now (my story), though there is a feeling of identification with my story. This identification is a feeling plus a thought "this is my story". If you told me your story I would not identify with it. Taking an extreme example, let us say I was put on death row with a date of execution 15 December 2024 for a crime I did not commit. The thought of being executed would constantly run through my mind, it would be a big part of my story. Now if for same strange reason the actual criminal confessed and swopped places with me on death row, I would feel very different because I have not identified with their story of being executed. So there is an identification process which seems beyond my control.

If you believe it ?

Stop there. That's all, it doesn't matter what the consensus is. If you believe something, it's true. So then the value of truth kinda plummets, doesn't it?
Yes and all the seeking for something that has no value :)

DE is not just words. Though maybe not, maybe even DE has some conceptualisation. Is it possible to experience anything without some conceptualisation ? I am equating words and concepts.

I'm telling you lots of funny things, but you have to go verify them for yourself. There are non-verbal concepts though. Go look and see. What's not a thought?

Temperature to me seems pretty non-verbal, though the experience of temperature has shape and location, which perhaps are added after the "pure" sensation of hot or cold ? Shape and location are properties of space which I think is a concept ?

[ty0]

Tyler, I am really amazed at how quickly you answer my questions and the time you have put into this for a complete stranger ! Wow.

Hey JB, don't worry about it. I don't have a busy life hahah. From now on, could you only use the quote function around what I wrote that you're replying to? It's getting kinda hard to read your responses haha

The issue I have with thoughts is that it is easy to get lost in them, and get sucked into a loop of suffering. Maybe the issue is about believing a thought (which is another thought). When life is quiet or in retreats thoughts slow down which feels pleasant, as thoughts can be agitating. I plan a lot or rehash the past which is unpleasant.

How does one thought propagate into other thoughts, creating this chain of suffering? It's when a thought appears which is believed and unnoticed as thought, so the tendency to fight against it is activated and more thoughts appear in response to it. All this emotional reaction comes from giving your thoughts too much credit, as if they somehow reflect reality. Have you ever snapped out of a thought loop and been like "Oh! That was all just thought!" and then laughed at it? Practise Whac-A-Mole and keep grounded in your senses in everyday life. Set a challenge for yourself like not forgetting about your breath for a whole day. Suffering is good, suffering is like a flashing signal that you're believing some story. When you notice you're suffering, get out of the thought loop and ask yourself: "What am I believing that's causing this reaction?"

Now if for same strange reason the actual criminal confessed and swopped places with me on death row, I would feel very different because I have not identified with their story of being executed. So there is an identification process which seems beyond my control

Well of course we have more thoughts about ourselves than others. Of course we would care more about our experience than others' experience. Because your own experience is all there really is, "others' experience" isn't really experienced, it's just a thought from your subjective perspective. And your subjective perspective isn't JUST your subjective perspective, it's literally all there is. Anything outside of your 5 senses is just a thought.
But if you would constantly think about it if you were put on death row, then there's some belief and resistance there. Of course you don't care about my dinner as much as yours, but your mind doesn't constantly have thoughts about your dinner. Why do some things seems to sway your mind more? For death row, is it because you're afraid of dying? Would you keep trying to think of a way out? Would you keep trying to mentally prepare yourself to soften the emotional impact on the day of your execution? Would you spiral in thoughts in an attempt to stop feeling the fear of death?

What do you normally do when you feel negative emotion? Have you ever tried fully feeling an intense emotion?

Yes and all the seeking for something that has no value :)

Well, not that truth is a thing that has no value, but more like truth is just a thought isn't it? And what is value? And what is seeking?

Temperature to me seems pretty non-verbal, though the experience of temperature has shape and location, which perhaps are added after the "pure" sensation of hot or cold ? Shape and location are properties of space which I think is a concept ?

Does "hot" really have shape or location? Go close your eyes and touch something hot. Where is the sensation? Is there a "where" at all if you don't conjure up some mental map of the body and picture which part of the body is feeling hot? It doesn't even have to be heat. Focus on the sensation of your left foot and focus on it. If you're imagining your left foot, note that that's a thought and try to zoom in more on the sensation itself. Can you stay on it until the sensation starts to lose locality?

[Sosimplyme]

Tyler, I am really amazed at how quickly you answer my questions and the time you have put into this for a complete stranger ! Wow.

Hey JB, don't worry about it. I don't have a busy life hahah. From now on, could you only use the quote function around what I wrote that you're replying to? It's getting kinda hard to read your responses haha

sounds nice :). I need some training with the quote function. I am assuming I put in my answers after typing "[/quote]" otherwise is their a video with instructions ? I thought I saw there was somewhere on one of the posts.

The issue I have with thoughts is that it is easy to get lost in them, and get sucked into a loop of suffering. Maybe the issue is about believing a thought (which is another thought). When life is quiet or in retreats thoughts slow down which feels pleasant, as thoughts can be agitating. I plan a lot or rehash the past which is unpleasant.

How does one thought propagate into other thoughts, creating this chain of suffering? It's when a thought appears which is believed and unnoticed as thought, so the tendency to fight against it is activated and more thoughts appear in response to it. All this emotional reaction comes from giving your thoughts too much credit, as if they somehow reflect reality. Have you ever snapped out of a thought loop and been like "Oh! That was all just thought!" and then laughed at it? Practise Whac-A-Mole and keep grounded in your senses in everyday life. Set a challenge for yourself like not forgetting about your breath for a whole day. Suffering is good, suffering is like a flashing signal that you're believing some story. When you notice you're suffering, get out of the thought loop and ask yourself: "What am I believing that's causing this reaction?"
[/quote] That agrees with my experience. Yes ! waking up from a thought train, it is a pleasant experience, generally. I will do that as much as possible. Following the breath for the whole day is a challenge ! I generally follow the breath or touch points or a sense of the body as a whole when I remember. Would you say suffering is believing something that is not true ?

Now if for same strange reason the actual criminal confessed and swopped places with me on death row, I would feel very different because I have not identified with their story of being executed. So there is an identification process which seems beyond my control

Well of course we have more thoughts about ourselves than others. Of course we would care more about our experience than others' experience. Because your own experience is all there really is, "others' experience" isn't really experienced, it's just a thought from your subjective perspective. And your subjective perspective isn't JUST your subjective perspective, it's literally all there is. Anything outside of your 5 senses is just a thought.
But if you would constantly think about it if you were put on death row, then there's some belief and resistance there. Of course you don't care about my dinner as much as yours, but your mind doesn't constantly have thoughts about your dinner. Why do some things seems to sway your mind more? For death row, is it because you're afraid of dying? Would you keep trying to think of a way out? Would you keep trying to mentally prepare yourself to soften the emotional impact on the day of your execution? Would you spiral in thoughts in an attempt to stop feeling the fear of death?

What do you normally do when you feel negative emotion? Have you ever tried fully feeling an intense emotion?

I have been practising turning toward the physical sensation in the body when I feel a challenging emotion and not letting my attention go to the story. It is easier to deal with the physical sensation by itself, compared to when the sensation is bundled with the thought, though some stories are more difficult to tease apart. For example, if there is a sense of righteousness or if the story hits one of my triggers. I have tried feeling intense emotion, especially during ayahuasca ceremonies.

Yes and all the seeking for something that has no value :)

Well, not that truth is a thing that has no value, but more like truth is just a thought isn't it? And what is value? And what is seeking?

yes, and value and seeking, since the thought "I can get something more than what is happening now" precedes all seeking.

Temperature to me seems pretty non-verbal, though the experience of temperature has shape and location, which perhaps are added after the "pure" sensation of hot or cold ? Shape and location are properties of space which I think is a concept ?

Does "hot" really have shape or location? Go close your eyes and touch something hot. Where is the sensation? Is there a "where" at all if you don't conjure up some mental map of the body and picture which part of the body is feeling hot? It doesn't even have to be heat. Focus on the sensation of your left foot and focus on it. If you're imagining your left foot, note that that's a thought and try to zoom in more on the sensation itself. Can you stay on it until the sensation starts to lose locality?

I will need to practice a bit more, but holding a warm cup of tea now the actual warm sensation has no location, my mind quickly attaches a location in my body so it is hard to distinguish location from sensation. I have had the experience where my foot sensation felt like it was in a different location than my foot, or my hand felt much bigger than what it is, which is strange. Will keep trying !!

[ty0]

Here's the quote video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=44s
You wanna put what I wrote around a "[qu0te]" and a "[/qu0te]", and then your response below it without any quotes. I replaced the "o" in the word "quote" there with a "0" so you can see it, but of course you'll want it to be the word "quote".

Would you say suffering is believing something that is not true ?

Honestly, I don't know what suffering is and I don't think there's value in giving it a definition. But getting lost in delusion certainly enables it. And in turn, it enables us to look at what delusions we're believing, which is pretty cool.

I have been practising turning toward the physical sensation in the body when I feel a challenging emotion and not letting my attention go to the story.

Keep trying to fully feel into it when you experience negative emotion. In fact, it'd be good to let the emotion fizzle out somewhat before you inquire into what belief was causing it.

I have had the experience where my foot sensation felt like it was in a different location than my foot, or my hand felt much bigger than what it is, which is strange. Will keep trying !!

Keep at it :). You can try Whac-A-Mole while focusing on any of the individual senses, in this case touch. I've found that pretty effective.

Any doubts? Questions? Concerns? What are some things you believe? What are some things you're sure of?