Seeing through the separate self

[Poischiche71]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand there is no I that chooses thoughts, feelings and sensations. All these arise on their own. In my experience, the "self" is the one that is aware of these arisings. It feels to be localized in my body- the experiencer, thinker and witness of all that happens. No self is the seeing through this illusion of a separate me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a guide to help me see through the "self". I have a knowing that life unfolds without me doing/controlling it because I am aware of what has arisen (thoughts, feelings and sensations) only AFTER they have arisen.- I am not someone deciding what my thoughts and feeling are going to be for the day and then it plays out that way. But I still feel like the experiencer and witness of thoughts, feelings, and sensations. This witness feels like the I. I would like help seeing through this feeling of witnessing which I mistake to be the me. I have read that it's a feeling but don't get this in reality.

I feel localized in my body and have a particular view point (I see from where I am sitting in the room), and only have access to my sensations and thoughts, not those of anyone else. I would like help seeing through this sense of being localized in a body because it really reinforces in me an experiential sense of a separate I.

I also need help seeing through the illusion of a thinker. If I’ve forgotten the name of the plumber for example, I feel like I search for it or know that at one point it will pop in my head and it does. There seems to be a someone who is looks and finds the answer- a doer, thinker, perceiver.

I can’t seem to “get” there is just experiencing, thinking and doing without the sense that I am who does these things.

I don't think I have been asking the right questions. After reading the book the Gateless Gate, I wish to be on the "hot seat" so to speak. I have one on one guidance to question the particular conditioning that keeps me from seeing the truth.

I would like help with the confusion I have about the I being the one looking for answers to these questions yet when I look for an I there is nothing. The I that looks finds a sense of aliveness and presence - of being here now- of awareness and a kind of empty space that somehow exists. Yet clearly, I am looking for the answers, I am following the instructions to look and am doing the looking....

These are some of the ways I feel covered from seeing the truth. I would like some help please.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read the book Gateless Gatecrashers, so I expect the same kind of conversations between a guide and the guided: questions posed by the guide- looking and reporting back on my end. I would also like the guide to be with me until "I" have a direct realization of the absence of a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been on the spiritual path for decades. I have read many books- Adyashanti, Rupert Spira, Angelo Dilullo, Eckhart Tolle, etc. I have done many meditation retreats- Vipassana, mindfulness, etc. I have asked myself "who am I", "what am I", "where am I", etc. I have tried to see through the self yet a sense of personal agency exists. I have had gurus who have turned out to be inauthentic. I am now done with being a seeker and wish to know and live the truth. I really, really want to see and experience the truth. It feels like the time has come for this. I believe it's possible for me (after years of not understanding what it actually was, or thinking it would take lifetimes).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

You're simply stuck in doubt.

However no one can relieve your doubt but you. A guide cannot come between you and your own thoughts. So, I'll guide & you look - deal?

Usually, there's a belief or a fear you have not questioned. I'll share some videos about looking for that. But first, some basics.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Poischiche71]

Hello Stacy,

Yes, I would very much like you to guide me! I am very thankful you responded to my message. :)

I'm Bernadett.

I was really happy to read your concise observation of me being "stuck in doubt" because that has honestly never occurred to me to all! I now see it's a blind spot and I would love to look more deeply into it and welcome your help and video suggestions- thank you!

Yes, I have time now to come to the forum and post everyday. I will make sure to let you know in advance if I cannot.

I confirm I have read the disclaimer and what LU is not. Copy on housekeeping guidelines 1-4.

1- How will life change?

I don't think life will change that much on the outside, although it's possible. I'm not expecting a big upheaval. Might be surprised...

2- How will I change?

I think seeing through the "self" would lead to me not take things personally. I would not manipulate because I would understand there is no "self" in control. I would not have expectations (future thinking) and would just flow through life accepting what happens because everything would be ok as it is (since it already IS as it is), and events would not having any consequences for a "self" (bad or good).

Just to be clear, I do understand that all kinds of thoughts can appear after awakening; it's just that they would be seen through as not being true. I am not expecting a state of no thoughts, or never feeling the pull of trying to control life, or never hoping and wishing for things. BUT I will see through these as just thoughts and not get hooked by them (or at least not often :) ).

Same for feelings. I expect feelings to be there and to be felt even more (now I use the mind a lot to placate my feelings). I hope I would be less reactive, since there would be no sense of no self to defend. And If I am reactive, I hope to not judge this or wish it to be different.

3- What will be different?

All thoughts, feeling, and sensations will be there. None will be self- referential.
My relationships with people will be more authentic and without agenda from my side.

4- What is missing?

A deep realization, that I believe comes from grace, which leads to absolute certainty and clarity of what "I AM". Otherwise, it's easy to fall back into the sense of a separate self.

If the offer still stand, yes, I would love a call! That would be amazing! Right now, due to daylight saving time, I am GMT-4

Thank you again and looking forward to exploring all of this with you.
Kind regards

[Poischiche71]

Oops, I misunderstood your last line about a "call"....never mind what I wrote :).

A written exchange is equally wonderful!
Thanks again!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Good. Your expectations are pretty reasonable. That helps. Only fear and expectations can prevent you from seeing. Both are just thoughts that take your focus off here & now.

What comes up when reading that there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is just a made up thought story?

Much love,

[Poischiche71]

What comes up when reading that there is no "self," never has been and never will be? That it is just a made up thought story?

Honestly, as I've sat here for an hour writing and rewriting, the truth is that I have a lot of mixed feelings and mixed thoughts. Part of me feels like it would be a relief and has hope; the other part of me is frustrated. I don't understand how it's "just made up of thought story".

Can you please help me to see the truth of this statement?

Kind regards

[Anastacia42]

Yes. That's what we're here for.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks



There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.



Here is an example to illustrate the difference:



If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:



• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.



• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.



For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.



Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that



We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..



Direct or Actual Experience is



Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)



Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[Poischiche71]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, it's clear that going into thought for an answer is very different from looking into my direct experience.

So for hearing it would be just a sound without a label, correct? Same for all the other 5? Thought would be thought/thinking in general, not visual image vs "sound bite" or "memory"in particular?

Thanks,
B

[Poischiche71]

Actually, if you could please give an example, I would appreciate it.

Thanks so much,
B

[Anastacia42]

Yes, we won't make you guess. There are simple, specific pointers for everything.



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Poischiche71]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for the example.. It's clear now.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Coffee:

Seeing a mug, simply= image/colors
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling of being seated on a chair, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the fan, simply = sound
Thought about being cold, simply = thought

Cereal:

Seeing a the bowl with cereal and banana, simply= image/colors
Smelling the banana, simply = smell
Feeling the heaviness of the bowl, simply = sensation
Tasting the cereal, simply = taste
Hearing the birds, simply = sound
Thought about whether or not I like this cereal, simply = thought

Brushing my teeth:

Seeing a toothbrush with toothpaste, simply= image/colors
Smelling the toothpaste, simply = smell
Feeling of brushing my teeth, simply = sensation
Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste
Hearing the water running, simply = sound
Thought about brushing my teeth without being distracted by thought, simply = thought

Standing outside: (this one was harder as there were lots of direct experiences to choose from)

Seeing the stairs down to the street, simply= image/color
Smelling the rain, simply = smell
Feeling of rain on my head and shoulders, simply = sensation
Tasting the remnants of toothpaste, simply = taste
Hearing the rain falling, simply = sound
Thought about my cell phone getting wet as I write this, simply = thought


It's an interesting exercises. Currently, it's automatic that labels are added to experience. In fact, labels are ALL that I refer to usually (except for when I forget the name of something and try to describe it instead :) )

I will continue to do this exercise for the rest of the day. It's like learning to be in the world in a completely new way.

As an aside, I have started to see what you pointed out about being "stuck in doubt". If you have a moment, could you please forward the videos you mentioned that I would find helpful? I would like to discover the belief or a fear that I have not questioned.

Another aside, I was reading guidance you gave in the thread "How to see past fear and doubt" to use the work of Byron Katie to question doubts. I am familiar with Byron Katie and have done her work. Would it be alright if I used her method when I become aware of doubtful thoughts? Currently they are very present and are coming up in a lot of different forms. Same with expectations. I'm easily getting entangled.

Please let me know.

Thanks again for your time.
Much appreciated,
B

[Anastacia42]

Hi Bernadett,

Definitely you may use the Work of Byron Katie! Please do.

Have you read Gateless Gatecrashers which is available to download from this site here?

Great work on the pointer. Here's the next one.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I'll send the doubt videos soon, but please do this first.

Loving,

[Poischiche71]

Hi Stacy,

Yes, I have read the Gateless Gatecrashers while I was waiting for a guide. I enjoyed it very much.

Perfect for doing Byron Katie's work. :) I think it will help.

Here are the answers to the exercise:

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting in a chair
I am hearing the rain
I am hearing cars
I am hearing water splashing
I am hearing the fan
I am looking at the computer screen
I am looking at the note book
I am feeling the pen in my hand
I am feeling my hand muscles working
I am feeling tightness in my chest
I am feeling tightness in my wrist
I am feeling my legs crossed
I am feeling my foot on the floor
I am feeling my chest and belly move as I breathe
I am feeling the air as it goes in my nose and down my throat
I am feeling tightness in my chin
I am feeling my tongue on the roof on my mouth
I am hearing people walking upstairs
I am hearing a child run upstairs
I am hearing my dog whining
I am feeling tightness in my throat
I am looking at my husband come in the door
I am feeling pain in my neck as I move my head
I am hearing voices from the TV
I am hearing my heartbeat.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

sitting in a chair
tightness in my chest
hearing dishes clang in the kitchen
feeling the pen glide over the paper
seeing the words appear
breathing
feeling an itchy nose
feeling nausea
feeling pain in right wrist
feeling my throat contracting as a swallow
blinking
hearing my husband talking
feeling my foot on the floor
feeling my shoulders relaxing
feeling pain in my stomach
hearing the dogs walking
hearing clanging of dishes
hearing a skateboard
feeling air from a fan
feeling my head move
looking at the time
hearing chopping in the kitchen
feeling my shoulders relaxing

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second way of writing about experience is truer. There is observing experience and "happenings" - verbs describe these better. With the "I" statements, there was a sense after 10min of how unnecessary it is to describe experience with the words "I am". Experience just arises. Attention just sifts. "I" am not deciding what to pay attention to, when.

2. What is here without labels?

Direct experience. Shapes, colors, sensations, sounds..the flow of these arising...attention shifting to them when they are noticed.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect experience. Labels don't even describe experience. A "pen" is a made-up word that facilities communication but it's not descriptive in any way. Even words that we can think are descriptive are random letters put together- like "soft".

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes, the "verbing" statements created a sense of openness and more relaxation in the body; they captured more authentically the flow of experiencing.

Thanks again.

Wishing you a good evening,
B

[Anastacia42]

Perfect! I wish everyone saw this that easily.

Here is the first video on doubt.

https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

and another pointer:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Poischiche71]

Hi Stacy,

I'm very grateful for the video link you sent about doubt. It's clear now that doubting is strong ego activity and reinforces the sense of a separate self. It's also reassuring that what's important in dissolving doubt is not uncovering all the underlying beliefs but being willing to be with all the sensations at arise that accompany the belief (feel the emotions from a place of compassionate acceptance).

In regards to telling lies, yes, I see this pattern at play in my life (and it has been there for a long time).

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Yes.

What is found?

Body sensations include tightness and contraction at the base of my throat and serum. Sinking feeling in the stomach. Slight increase in heart rate. Sweaty hands. Tension in general in the body- as if it's stressed to be hiding the truth, or like "a dear in the headlights" when caught off guard and not wanting to share the truth- so a lie a spoken. Tension in the jaw, however, the face and body moved in a way that was trying to be soft and light to hide the lie.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Yes, I see that peaceful is a term made up of a few sensations: expansiveness, lightness, spaciousness, slow smooth breathing, relaxation, flow, ease, softness, steady slow heartbeat...

Wishing you a good day,
Bernadett