Guide request

[JakeP1989]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Someone who speaks to you to help you notice in your own experience that there is no separate entity or self

What are you looking for at LU? Looking for help with the awakening process… I’ve read some books and videos, I feel like I understand and see how the individual self doesn’t exist. That I am the awareness of my body and everything else, but still feel like a person. Since I stumbled on to this stuff I’ve become really detached from everyone like I just need to be alone all the time, and some weird stuff has been happening to me. I started meditating and noticed when I closed my eyes all these tiny lights kind of like static on a tv screen. Then I started seeing it with my eyes open everywhere I look. But there is always this one light right in the middle. It moves towards me and away… but it is always there, eyes open or closed doesn’t matter. Always the static and this one pronounced light like a star. Then I started having these weird energetic shifts I guess? I’ve never meditated in my life. I thought people who talked about that stuff were making it up. But parts of my body started like clicking into place, moving on their own and a few times this intense energy slowly went up my spine and filled up my head. I don’t know who to ask about this stuff, I don’t see how it’s related to non duality or awareness or no self stuff but I feel deep down that it’s true, I’m not the body… so what does this energy meditation stuff have to do with it? What is going on with my vision? Or is it just a distraction? It feels important and sometimes it starts happening when I’m not even meditating and I feel like I have to go lay down and let the energy do its thing… It’s so weird I never would have imagined this happening. I’m a 35 y/o male with a kid, fiancé, I’m a firefighter… I don’t know a single person who I could talk to about any of this they would think I’m nuts

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Hoping someone could walk me through this. Like I said there’s been some weird changes going on with me and I don’t see how it’s related. I don’t know who else to talk to. Everyone I know would think I’m crazy

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I’ve read some books… Nisagadatta, Ramesh Balsakar, Peter Brown… Started meditating at the same time. All started a little less than a year ago maybe. I’ve tried inquiry but the only things I’ve noticed happening have been usually just meditating I guess. Just laying down and trying to let go, like unclenching a fist. A lot of the weird energy stuff kinda just happens out of nowhere though just going about my day

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[ty0]

Hey Jake, I'm Tyler and welcome to LU.
I can't really just "walk you through" all this stuff so just feel free to ask me any questions you have. It sounds like you have some doubt and confusion and you'd just like a bro to be able to talk to who's been through this process before.

so what does this energy meditation stuff have to do with it?

Well, some people call this kundalini or chakra, you could read up on that if you're curious. I never really thought about it too much cause it doesn't matter what it is. You feel some stuff and that's it, not much to it. Though people have written whole-ass books about it ahahhahaha

What is going on with my vision? Or is it just a distraction?

Dude, that static stuff has always been there. If you tell anyone about it and get them to pay attention to it with their eyes closed, they'll notice. It's just that our minds tend to filter out the "non-important" stuff in our perception. You've become more mindful/vigilant and now you can't stop noticing it. It's kinda like noticing that you can see your nose.

Alright, my turn to ask you questions

I feel like I understand and see how the individual self doesn’t exist. That I am the awareness of my body and everything else, but still feel like a person.

How do you know you're the awareness? Is it cause you heard a lot of "spiritual" people say it? I'd like you to be a bit more skeptical about everything and only believe something when you have undeniable proof that supports it. Not that I'm saying something is true or something is false, just look for yourself.

I feel deep down that it’s true, I’m not the body

Then what are you? Who are you?

[JakeP1989]

Hey man thanks for getting back to me. That’s a huge relief to hear I’m not losing my vision or going crazy…

To answer your question, I don’t know that I’m awareness. What I’ve read that resonated most with me seemed to say that you are nothing/everything, and awareness was just a way to talk about it. In my own experience I haven’t seen what that points to and I have no idea what I am, or if I am even anything at all

My best guess is when they say that the world and self is an illusion or an overlay by the mind, maybe all that exists is this energy stuff I’m seeing and the rest is an image mind puts over it? I can see how that could be, I’ve seen the static stuff take over my vision and everything else disappear and this ringing in my ears get louder and can feel it going deeper in my ears but it’s like the energy going up my spine. It always goes up to my neck or my head but never finishes if that makes sense. It gets to the last tiny part of my face that isn’t let go, my heart used to start racing like I was about to die but still every time I try to get through that part I can’t figure out how get that last little part of me into place to let it finish. Part of me feels like awakening is on the other side of it and part of me feels like I’m wasting my time with it and it has nothing to do with seeing what I am.

To your other question what/who am I… I really dont know. There is that theory about the energy I’m seeing everywhere , but that doesn’t even feel right to me, and even if it did, it’s just a thought that does nothing for me… I feel like I’ve kinda hit a wall. On one hand all this weird stuff has been happening to me and I guess a lot of spiritual people would consider that progress but I don’t consider myself spiritual at all and this process doesn’t seem spiritual to me either. I don’t see the relation. But on the other hand my relationships are falling apart, I don’t have any desire to talk to my friends, my fiance… she’s fucking pissed at me understandably, but i feel like i have to see this thing through but if all this is true then i don’t even exist so there isn’t anything I can even do about it…

Thanks for getting back to me man it’s really a relief to finally talk about this

[JakeP1989]

I forgot I had some questions too if that’s ok. You said everyone sees this static stuff or can see it… do you know what this one pronounced light it is? Whenever I stop and look and start noticing the static stuff again there is always this bigger light like a star. It comes right up to my face and moves back, or at least appears to because at the same time it doesn’t really get farther or closer I don’t think because I can even see it on the inside of my eyelids or if I put my hand in front of it I’ll see it on there… like how a projector would work if you stick something in front of it… the rest of the static just kinda sparkles but this one is different it like moves in circles and comes right up to my face, and changes colors or goes into a black dot… its the strangest thing, almost like it’s intelligent or trying to communicate… I’ve seen some pictures on books on non duality stuff of a single bright light that look it could be this but I’ve never seen anyone talk about it… do you have any idea what this thing is?

[JakeP1989]

I forgot I had some questions too if that’s ok. You said everyone sees this static stuff or can see it… do you know what this one pronounced light it is? Whenever I stop and look and start noticing the static stuff again there is always this bigger light like a star. It comes right up to my face and moves back, or at least appears to because at the same time it doesn’t really get farther or closer I don’t think because I can even see it on the inside of my eyelids or if I put my hand in front of it I’ll see it on there… like how a projector would work if you stick something in front of it… the rest of the static just kinda sparkles but this one is different it like moves in circles and comes right up to my face, and changes colors or goes into a black dot… its the strangest thing, almost like it’s intelligent or trying to communicate… I’ve seen some pictures on books on non duality stuff of a single bright light that look it could be this but I’ve never seen anyone talk about it… do you have any idea what this thing is?

[JakeP1989]

I forgot I had some questions too if that’s ok. You said everyone sees this static stuff or can see it… do you know what this one pronounced light it is? Whenever I stop and look and start noticing the static stuff again there is always this bigger light like a star. It comes right up to my face and moves back, or at least appears to because at the same time it doesn’t really get farther or closer I don’t think because I can even see it on the inside of my eyelids or if I put my hand in front of it I’ll see it on there… like how a projector would work if you stick something in front of it… the rest of the static just kinda sparkles but this one is different it like moves in circles and comes right up to my face, and changes colors or goes into a black dot… its the strangest thing, almost like it’s intelligent or trying to communicate… I’ve seen some pictures on books on non duality stuff of a single bright light that look it could be this but I’ve never seen anyone talk about it… do you have any idea what this thing is?

[JakeP1989]

Shit, I can’t delete these can I? Didn’t mean to post it 3 times

[ty0]

Shit, I can’t delete these can I? Didn’t mean to post it 3 times

Nope hahah, don't worry about it.

I don't see this single bright light you're talking about. Just static stuff constantly shimmering and morphing into different shapes. First, does it matter what the light is? Will knowing what it is make you enlightened or make it go away? IS it even anything other than something you see?
If it doesn't bother you, don't worry about it. If it does bother you, you might wanna go to an eye doctor hahah.

In my own experience I haven’t seen what that points to and I have no idea what I am, or if I am even anything at all

Ok, the question of you aside, is there anything you're sure of at all? What do you know with 100% certainty?

It gets to the last tiny part of my face that isn’t let go, my heart used to start racing like I was about to die but still every time I try to get through that part I can’t figure out how get that last little part of me into place to let it finish. Part of me feels like awakening is on the other side of it and part of me feels like I’m wasting my time with it and it has nothing to do with seeing what I am.

Don't try to do anything with it. Don't try to get that little part into place so it can finish. Whatever strange things occur to you, the best you can do is to feel into it and let it happen. If something feels incomplete, you feel into the incompleteness and let the incompleteness be there.

There is that theory about the energy I’m seeing everywhere , but that doesn’t even feel right to me, and even if it did, it’s just a thought that does nothing for me… I feel like I’ve kinda hit a wall.

Yeah your theory about the energy is just a thought and you've definitely hit a wall. You've hit a wall because all you know how to do is think your way out of problems, but someow thought isn't working here.

On one hand all this weird stuff has been happening to me and I guess a lot of spiritual people would consider that progress but I don’t consider myself spiritual at all and this process doesn’t seem spiritual to me either.

Yeah it never seemed spiritual to me. It's just straight up your entire life.

What are you looking for here? You don't sound like you're in a lot of suffering. Are you looking for truth? Something to hold onto? Do you just wanna be able to save your relationships?

Anyway, for now, just feel everything you feel. Let me know when you experience intense emotions. You can try these inquiry questions instead of "who am i?":
Where am I?
What's here that's not a thought?

[JakeP1989]

First, does it matter what the light is? Will knowing what it is make you enlightened or make it go away? IS it even anything other than something you see?

I've been wondering the same thing, if it matters or not but I think that was what I needed to hear. I don't see what it could have to do with the no self realization thing other than another experience.

Ok, the question of you aside, is there anything you're sure of at all? What do you know with 100% certainty?

When I really think about it, the answer that I keep coming back to is that I exist. Maybe not as this "me" that I've always thought I was, but I feel certain that existence is 100%

What are you looking for here? You don't sound like you're in a lot of suffering. Are you looking for truth? Something to hold onto? Do you just wanna be able to save your relationships?

Honestly man, I just want to feel happy again. I can't even remember what that feels like... Objectively I have a life that most people would be envious of... I have a kid, a fiance who is way more attractive than me, house, money, cool job. But ive just felt empty and detached for as long as I can remember. I just randomly randomly stumbled on this book by Nisargadatta about a year ago and read it not knowing anything about him or any of this stuff. I've never believed in anything in my entire life but when I read it I knew he was telling the truth. Maybe I've always felt this way because my whole life is a lie or something. I don't know, I can't really explain it I just felt like this was what I have to do

Anyway, for now, just feel everything you feel. Let me know when you experience intense emotions. You can try these inquiry questions instead of "who am i?":
Where am I?
What's here that's not a thought?

I will do this for a couple hours tonight and get back to you. Most recently when I do these inquiries I get nothing from Who am I, just feels like I'm waiting but I dont notice anything except for the regular random thoughts that have nothing to do with "me". The only emotions I've felt in a long time i think are sadness or anger. When I look at them, it's just a slight feeling in my chest or head and goes away pretty quick unless i entertain the thoughts about them, but even then I dont know why I'm so sad.

Where am I, it feels like I am behind the eyes somehow. Butive looked at that for hours and can't find anything.

I will try all these tonight until I fall asleep and let you know what I find

[ty0]

When I really think about it, the answer that I keep coming back to is that I exist. Maybe not as this "me" that I've always thought I was, but I feel certain that existence is 100%

Why are you certain about that? Got any proof? I'm not saying you do or don't exist, but why don't you treat it as a hypothesis right now and try to prove it right?

Honestly man, I just want to feel happy again. I can't even remember what that feels like... Objectively I have a life that most people would be envious of... I have a kid, a fiance who is way more attractive than me, house, money, cool job. But ive just felt empty and detached for as long as I can remember.

Yeah I feel you. This is a common way people get into this stuff. They feel empty so they go achieve everything society says will make them happy. Then they've got everything they think they want and are like "well fuck, I'm still not happy". Some people chase wealth or power or drugs until they die, so just be glad you've decided to get out of that whole goose chase altogether.


Ok, since you've already done lots of "where am I", why don't you try "what's here that's not a thought?" for a little while. You're really sure of your own existence, yet when you look for yourself, you can't find it. It sounds like you don't have any solid proof for existence yet, so try to find some proof.

Find your self by dismissing all that isn't your self. Find the truth by dismissing all that is untrue. Go through EVERYTHING, your 5 senses, your body, your personality, your thoughts, and ask, "Is that me? Would I still be here without that?"

[JakeP1989]

Hey man I was doing your inquiry today and the kundalini thing started happening again. It went all the way up to my head this time then started going down my face. I had to go to the store after that and when I came home I started feeling it in my head again m, this was just a few min ago. My visions getting really bright and changing and it feels like my heads about to pop open. Not really in a bad way though. It’s still happening right now so I’m gonna see what happens with this but I just thought to update you haha

[ty0]

Cool. How's it feel now?

[JakeP1989]

Hey man, when I sent you that last message my vision was kind of pulsating from really bright and back to a little bright and this energy stuff filled up my head like it needed to come out or go somewhere. I tried to relax and let it do its thing but fiancé kept coming in the room and I’d have to act normal. I haven’t told her about any of this stuff. It didn’t go away completely but it relaxed some and when I laid down for bed it kept going all night, felt like it was fixing stuff from my back to my neck and face. Parts were moving on their own and adjusting I guess. Really hard to describe.

It was pretty uneventful for the most part besides that but there were a few times for a split second or so where I actually felt like I was not my body and felt some pretty profound peace. This was all really brief though maybe a second or two. At one point when stuff was moving on its own I remember I got the feeling that the body is doing all of this without me and I was actually just getting in the way by thinking im a part of the process or trying to do something. Like me trying to have control over anything is actively making things worse.

I’ve read that for some people awakening was a pretty physical process and the "I” sense is basically a tension in your body. Maybe that’s what’s going on with me… what was the process like for you? If you don’t mind me asking

I’m doing your inquiries throughout my workday today as much as I can remember. I’ll keep you updated. Thanks for all your help man

[ty0]

Hey dude, why haven't you told your fiance about this stuff? I just had the thought. Like yeah, it's pretty weird stuff, but you didn't commit murder or cheat on her. You really gonna marry this girl without her knowing about this huge thing going on in your life? You could just show her this thread or something, I think we sound pretty sane 😂

It didn’t go away completely but it relaxed some and when I laid down for bed it kept going all night, felt like it was fixing stuff from my back to my neck and face. Parts were moving on their own and adjusting I guess. Really hard to describe.

Yeah don't worry about explaining exactly how it was or even trying to make sense of it to yourself. All that is just thought and interpretation. Whatever it was, it was just that. It's like, you're not gonna think about the taste of a particular dish and try to understand why it's like that and what purpose it serves. Shit happens, your interpretation of it will never come close to the thing itself.

Like me trying to have control over anything is actively making things worse.

Well, I don't know about worse, but it's probably wise to not get in the way. Same with all this awakening stuff and life, best we can do is just not get in the way.

I’ve read that for some people awakening was a pretty physical process and the "I” sense is basically a tension in your body. Maybe that’s what’s going on with me… what was the process like for you?

For me it started off feeling more mental and less physical. The energy stuff was definitely less intense for me, usually manifesting as these waves of electric-y goosebumps all over the body. But over time physical and non-physical started to have no difference. You could definitely perceive the "I" sense as a tension, it can be interpreted in infinite ways.

I again wanna emphasise that you don't have to figure out WHAT is going on with you or what kind of awakening you're having. This is just more and more thought-stuff trying to fit awakening into a mental model so we can feel safety in "understanding" it when that's not really possible.

It really doesn't matter what the process was like for me or anyone else. You can't actually experience anything apart from your own experience. So all you're doing is taking ideas about awakening and comparing your interpretation of your own awakening with them. What I'm trying to say is this is all going on at an intellectual level, so do it if you want, but be aware that it's all thoughts and has nothing to do with your reality. As far as you're concerned, nothing really exists outside your own experience.

[ty0]

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.
Anything that is not DE is thought.

Here's a practice you can try at home:
DE Inquiry: First, use meditation to quiet the mind somewhat. Then, inquire: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?" Look and see, man.

Now you have 2 tools and I don't think you'll need much else for a while.