HEB

[Bhkb]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Reminds me of Buddhist teachings. That the self is not real in a sense that we are no thing. Self was only formed by ours and other people’s perception of us that makes us a thing.

What are you looking for at LU?
Spiritual development and awakening. Rise in consciousness and understand of self and universal truths. One of my main goals in life is this and I hope by connecting with others on the same path it can help in my journey

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m open minded as I normally am going into anything but personally I feel drawn to this. Like a guide showing me the door. Now it’s me either to walk through it or stay where I am at. I hope via dialogue I can learn more about the world and myself

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve do have a spiritual practice that’s always learning, growing, and expanding. I understand all the answers are within us not outside of us. I do deep dives within myself and I’m learning to ask better questions.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[warissem]

Hi (which name I put here)

I am glad to accompany you to see through the belief of a separate self.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[Bhkb]

How will life change?

Almost living in a way of new found freedom. Freedom from the thoughts, emotions, and the body.

How will you change?

Seeing things for what they are, without the illusions, and from that almost like not being bothered by things outside of the self e.g. Thoughts, Emotions, Body. Less attachment

What will be different?

My perception, how I view things will certainly change

What is missing?

Lately, I've been seeking truth and wanting to see things for what they are, the right perception, not what I think, but what is. With so much going on in the world, information overload, social media, etc, it's easy to get sucked in. And my issue has been, how do you know what is the truth or not. And because of this, I find it hard some times to follow what I think is the right thing for me. I am always question all sides, all angles.

[Bhkb]

I am glad to accompany you to see through the belief of a separate self.

Apologies for the late reply. I've been away on business and just settling back.

Thank you for your patience and reaching out to me.

[warissem]

Hi

Almost living in a way of new found freedom. Freedom from the thoughts, emotions, and the body.

Freedom for whom? There is no you in the first place.

Seeing things for what they are, without the illusions

,
Without the belief in a separate self, yes.

and from that almost like not being bothered by things outside of the self e.g. Thoughts, Emotions, Body. Less attachment

There is no you to be bothered or not.

My perception, how I view things will certainly change

It could be. But it is not your perception, there is no you at all.

Lately, I've been seeking truth and wanting to see things for what they are, the right perception, not what I think, but what is. With so much going on in the world, information overload, social media, etc, it's easy to get sucked in. And my issue has been, how do you know what is the truth or not. And because of this, I find it hard some times to follow what I think is the right thing for me. I am always question all sides, all angles.

During this process, it will be seen that there is no you thinking, no you seeking.

Apologies for the late reply. I've been away on business and just settling back.

No worry about the delay.

Thank you for your patience and reaching out to me.

You are much welcome.

What arises as thoughts and feelings when you read this :
There is no you in any shape or form, it never was, it will never be.

Best for you

[Bhkb]

What arises as thoughts and feelings when you read this :
There is no you in any shape or form, it never was, it will never be.

It makes sense to me. This me, is something I created in my head. It reminds me of what Jay Shetty once said:

I am not who I think I am, I am not what you think I am, I am who I think you think I am.

In the end it's all self made up.

In terms of feelings, I really don't feel much other than being free when I remind myself of this...

[warissem]

Hi

We begin to familiarize with direct experience which is :
seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.
Thoughts are used for communication only.

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Best for you

[Bhkb]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Loud and clear

[warissem]

Good evening

Here is an exercise to deepen looking at direct experience.
Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Waiting for your insights

[Bhkb]

Good Evening,
Sorry for the late reply. I must say the website as of late has been very slow in loading. Sometimes I can get in after a long time loading and other times I get a time out error.

When I first saw the last post I immediately went into the exercise and even continued it through the days and week. I'll start with your questions first..

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

MY thoughts consist of telling about apple e.g. Size, the bite I can take, the taste and sweetness of the apple, etc. All pre conditions from prior experiences

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Only the thoughts that is associated with the apple e.g. it's the color, and a thought about the apple, etc
The existence of the "apple" is only the meaning I've given to it.

Waiting for your insights

The apply only exists because of the meaning we and us all have associated the word "apple" to. And that of course is the thought, or more thoughts, of the object itself. Take that away, it does not exist at all.

Being able to have actual experience sounds to be fully present and immersed into whatever it is we are doing without the pre conditions/thoughts we have..

The other day I was in the hospital and I was having all sorts of thoughts. And as I was observing them, especially after reading your last post, I was just noticing how the different thoughts was making my body feel. And when I told myself that the "I" does not exist, the thoughts had nothing to attach to. And it simply faded away and whatever I was feeling also faded away. Made me understand better the difference between thought experience and actual experience. Two often times very different experiences. Very cool..

[warissem]

Hi

No, no, it does not work like this (your last post). It is important to get to the ground of experience to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Direct experience is hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting and touching (or sensations). Concepts are used to communicate between us.

Here is the exercise again and give a separate answer to all questions in blue. Select the question and use the quote function.

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Don't imagine anything, look at direct experience of the apple (or another fruit).

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Be patient and give faith to this process
Warissem

[Bhkb]

I re-read the exercise. To be honest, As I experience things, there are my thoughts. It's like something is talking. Can I experience without the thoughts? Yes.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

I would be describing the experience of the apple e.g. Oh this is nice, it's sweet, or sour, crunchy, big, small, etc

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

If you put it that way, I would say colour and thought(s) about 'apple'.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Trying to wrap my head around this. You said "Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation". I can experience all that by simply looking and holding the thing called in my hand. But the name itself was created and 'actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something'. So for that reason, the answer is no.

is an apple actually known?

Logically, no? I need to think a bit more on this.

[warissem]

Hi

Logically, no? I need to think a bit more on this.

There is no need for logic here, the clue is to LOOK AT direct experience and SEE (or know) what is here.

Look at your daily activities and notice that :

In the seeing there are colors
in the hearing there are sounds
in the smelling there are smells
in the tasting there are tastes
in the touching there are textures or sensations

All other stuff is thought stories.

Where are you, where is a separate self in what is said above?

Enjoy the practice all along a day.

[Bhkb]

There is no need for logic here, the clue is to LOOK AT direct experience and SEE (or know) what is here.

Basically, experience without the thoughts, the chatter?

For example, going back to the apple exercise, I'm holding the apple. I bit into the apple. Without being in my head, I'm just experiencing it through sight, sound, smell, taste...the senses, and not thinking about it?

[warissem]

Good morning

For example, going back to the apple exercise, I'm holding the apple. I bit into the apple. Without being in my head, I'm just experiencing it through sight, sound, smell, taste...the senses, and not thinking about it?

Yes. Do the practice, as it is shown in my last post and you will be familiar with looking at direct experience.

Waiting for your insights