Help with the selfing please

[Agroundagain]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Seeing through the fictional, construct of the self, which is made up of a set of beliefs, ideas and a long list of right and wrongs, that we cling to, which results in constant exhausting judgements of the world & back onto the self.
Dissolving this results in 0 distance into what’s happening. The filter removed.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for assistance in seeing through the above, pointers & help with my blockages.
Am not very good with inquiry. There are some like - what’s here? Or - What is here that has already let go? But often takes me more into selfing. Questions in relationship to self begin a conversation. So help with this would be great.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully help with the above. Help for the particular things that I have fixations over, that are pertinent to me. I would like to be called out for my bullshit, as I’m positive I can’t always tell if I'm bypassing. It’s so funny how thoughts can mask as something more!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation on & off since my early 20s, then nonduality the last 3 years, which felt like a game changer.
There’s been glimpses, some shifts but I have doubts. Sometimes I disappear into sensation but the chatter, like a woodpecker is constant.
Some insights on psychedelics - recognition that I’d made myself up (I was terrified, then accepted… a lot later) and another time that my pain was a story.. It melted away.
More recently I understood my pain is an excuse for not seeing. Safety in pain!
I worry that I am conceptualizing it all. My mind pops in a lot.
And I understand that I can’t see it from here - it won’t be seen in the thinking!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

(if I may call you Angela?),

You left a message for me asking if I still do video guiding? You may possibly know me as Jon?

As a matter of fact I’m not currently doing video guiding due to a busy work shedule, but I still guide here sometimes by text. If you specifically want video guiding it would be better to approach one of the other guides.

Anyway, I have read your post and can relate to many of the things that you say. If you like we could chat here and see where it goes? Perhaps I might be able to assist you in your inquiry?


Let me know if you would like to do this or if you will pursue the video guiding option?


Best wishes

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon,

That's great yes - here is fine for me also. Especially if you can relate!

After joining, I read through some of the pointers on other people's feeds and so have been trying to note - sound, hear, see, sensation, thought and then it's thought thought thought ha!

This is such a great service - is that the right term?! Anyway I'm very grateful for this and your assistance.

Big thanks
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hello Angela,

You’re very welcome.

have been trying to note - sound, hear, see, sensation, thought and then it's thought thought thought ha!

Right. Yes that can happen.

Is the frequent appearance of thoughts an issue, something that shouldn’t be happening? Be completely honest as you answer.

Don’t worry, we can focus on this area for a while and perhaps it will help.


Best wishes

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your message & I hope you are well.

I understand that thought will always be here & not to get involved with the story attached to it. But it interferes with the sensation, or perhaps i think it does. It's so slippery.
If I say sound, then I'm there for a millisecond. Then a thought comes, so I say thought. Then I hear then say- sound and it's another millisecond before again thought. This cycle feels like constant thought. Or a fight with thought. I guess the problem is the gap is so small!
Then I change my mind (😂) and say - why don't I focus on the sensation of my breath so I can distract my thought with in & out...
And I realise that this is all thoughts! It feels like a mad old time of thinking!
The sounds and sensations in their pure form, I'm not thinking about them or attaching stories to them. Just the chatter.

Sight, on the other hand - is hard to unhook from though.
There is also current money stress, that a is loud thought. But this story is only at night. Stress, I know happens at night.

All the best
Angela

[Agroundagain]

Sorry to clarify - It's really that I don't know. Is this how it goes? Then gaps will get longer? Or can you see it's just thinking, this constant short to and fro...?

[JonathanR]

Hello Angela

Sorry to clarify - It's really that I don't know. Is this how it goes? Then gaps will get longer? Or can you see it's just thinking, this constant short to and fro...?

You’ll notice that I quoted your last paragraph? ( This can be very convenient whilst we chat here. If you want to try it there’s a button just above this editing screen. You use it by pasting relevant text in between the cursors that appear).

It’s interesting that you used the phrase “a fight with thought”. That was often how it used to be with me too. And it isn’t as if thoughts have stopped or slowed down particularly. Well, maybe a bit, and they are less bothersome. It’s this element of fighting with thoughts that is worth looking at.

So to try to be of assistance to you I have a couple of questions that I would like you to consider.


Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

Try preventing a thought from appearing.

Also, is it possible to create a thought? Try creating a thought now.

Let me know how those two go?

We must come back to the “fighting with thought” issue idea later, but for now try those two experiments I suggested,

With best wishes

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon,

Thanks yes - I don't think thoughts will stop. I found out that long ago at Vipassana. And I'm not getting involved with their content, or when I do I come back to sensation. It's just the hopping back and forth like - oh here's a sensation, oh here's a thought, or here's a sound, here's a thought. My mind is full of these sentences. The thoughts have changed from an internal dialogue to a constant stream of naming sensation, naming thought, naming sound naming thought. This is now the thought. This is what I mean by fight. I guess it's the wrong phrase.
It might not make sense. It's feels very OCD.
Sometimes when I try enquiry, I might say - what is here, and here happens, then goes. Then I say it again, then here happens... but soon it becomes the same, constant repeating. Like a fixation. My mind has taken hold and is using it as a thought itself.
Crying emoji here :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

I don't think thoughts will stop. I found out that long ago at Vipassana. And I'm not getting involved with their content, or when I do I come back to sensation. It's just the hopping back and forth like - oh here's a sensation, oh here's a thought, or here's a sound, here's a thought. My mind is full of these sentences. The thoughts have changed from an internal dialogue to a constant stream of naming sensation, naming thought, naming sound naming thought. This is now the thought. This is what I mean by fight. I guess it's the wrong phrase.
It might not make sense. It's feels very OCD.
Sometimes when I try enquiry, I might say - what is here, and here happens, then goes. Then I say it again, then here happens... but soon it becomes the same, constant repeating. Like a fixation. My mind has taken hold and is using it as a thought itself.
Crying emoji here :)

Oh. I do recognise this as thought can get into such vicious circles. But it’s an uncomfortable pattern.


It sounds as though you got into a routine of naming or noting sensations and thoughts , which I’m assuming is a discipline from Vipassana tradition? But now thinking is partly jammed on “auto-pilot” and “does” this noting whether it’s desirable or not?

Assuming that I have understood you correctly I’ve a couple of things to say. One is that you may have a point about OCD? It is worth considering, isn’t it? It could be confusing to continue to pursue spiritual insights, so to speak, if it actually is OCD.

The other thing is that it does look like there’s an idea that someone has to keep doing this noting, for whatever reason?

If there is no great attachment to the content of thoughts then what is the need to continue to watch and watch?


Please let me know what you think?

Love

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Good Evening Jon,

It sounds as though you got into a routine of naming or noting sensations and thoughts , which I’m assuming is a discipline from Vipassana tradition? But now thinking is partly jammed on “auto-pilot” and “does” this noting whether it’s desirable or not?

No, not Vipassana, I read some guides on this site - LU- suggesting the noting. So I've been trying it. But have gotten tied up in knots! Note Knots! And the result is like auto pilot.

Assuming that I have understood you correctly I’ve a couple of things to say. One is that you may have a point about OCD? It is worth considering, isn’t it? It could be confusing to continue to pursue spiritual insights, so to speak, if it actually is OCD.

Yes I think my mind is just being silly, it's producing this loop. I don't have OCD but this feels like that- like a fixation. And loud....

Shall I just drop the noting? Usually I just feel into sensations, but was looking for some guidance so tried this.

What is your suggestion for an approach? What did you do?

Big thanks :)

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

I read some guides on this site - LU- suggesting the noting. So I've been trying it. But have gotten tied up in knots! Note Knots! And the result is like auto pilot

Well, time to relax, I’d suggest.

Yes I think my mind is just being silly, it's producing this loop. I don't have OCD but this feels like that- like a fixation. And loud....

Well, yes. It is possible to overdo what is termed “inquiry” by taking a position rather like a cat watching a mouse hole. It can be somewhat hyper-vigilant or compulsive and counterproductive.

Shall I just drop the noting? Usually I just feel into sensations, but was looking for some guidance so tried this.

Yes. Drop this if possible. It may be easier to think of this as simply relaxing, rather than imagining that the relaxing needs to be practiced or “done”.

In terms of guidance, would you say that it’s already seen that there is no self? It would be very helpful if you could answer this question. Feel free to say as much or as little about this as you would like.

Thank you

Jon

[Agroundagain]

In terms of guidance, would you say that it’s already seen that there is no self? It would be very helpful if you could answer this question. Feel free to say as much or as little about this as you would like.

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your response :)

Yes. But it happened on Psychedelics. I had been already meditating and I guess inquiring. Have always sort of inquired - asked myself the true motivations behind my thoughts/emotions. Tried to take off the onion skin.

So I saw that I had 'made myself up', that I was a construct... Though perhaps because it was via substance, not gradual, and because I had a lot of fear around this 'black abyss of death' (a morbid obsession since very young) - I became terrified. As if, all I was afraid of was true! Without this manufactured Angela, I would be floating here in 'the nothing!'

But then I found nonduality, and it resonated and things settled. My fear of death and this abyss slowly dropped away. Which was incredible - It had been a constant companion forever!! I understood I had been clinging to this idea of myself. Make that self right, fix all its ills by creating a more solid self.

I worry that this is the concept of it & not true insight. But I know it also to be true.

I also looked at what i was doing with work and dropped all of this also. There was so much effort everywhere, I don't mind effort, but it seemed the effort was to make some kind of brand Angela! TBF within the work, there was truth, a real urge, but it was smothered by packaging. Exhausting. It was no longer about the work anymore.

What had already dropped too, before even the above experience, was blame and feeling sorry for myself. That seemed pointless. I saw everyone just trying their best with what they had. I understood right and wrong as being an idea. So many ideas everywhere!

But there is still a lot here. Maybe it's all still here. I don't even know! Maybe all the above is a new view I have adopted!! The righteous me knowing that right is a concept!! Goodness! As soon as I think I know something, I try and come back to my sensations but here it's hard. This kinda knowing feels like real knowing but what is? The mind is just trying to get a hold!

And acting out of the self still happens - habits! I still operate in a mad kinda busy busy way, still can't make it to the non dual meetings. I'm applying for a course, so naturally have applied for 10. I still find myself drinking too much - though less so lately. The constant course applications is getting in the way of that!

So you can see - I'm still doing distractions... But also perhaps that's the way I operate in the world?! Doubt I guess is here!!

I'm not sure if that covers it.

Thanks for your help x

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela,

Thank you for your full answer. It was interesting to read.

Interesting that the seeing that there is no self first happened on psychedelics.

Though perhaps because it was via substance, not gradual, and because I had a lot of fear around this 'black abyss of death' (a morbid obsession since very young) - I became terrified

That’s understandable. Though actually, plenty of people whose route did not involve psychedelics have experienced fear in relation to seeing no self. At least to begin with. But there’s also a stigmatisation of psychedelics and lurid warnings from within religious (and other) institutions about “the dangers”. So against that backdrop it’s possible to imagine that such realisations may be “wrong”, “Ill-gotten”, (or whatever).

I worry that this is the concept of it & not true insight. But I know it also to be true.

Right. That’s so interesting. Yes, there is the concept of it but I love the way you write “ But I know it also to be true”. Absolutely! Thoughts, commentary, mental chatter still happens ABOUT realisation, and we are rightly skeptical about this mental interpretation but there’s still whatever it is that cannot be unseen.

It’s great to hear that so many ideas dropped away, fear of death, the concept of a self that needs to be fixed, blame and self-pity .

I see you also express some doubts? Perhaps we can take a look at these as we go along? But the first thing I would like to ask you now is : what makes things happen? Do you make things happen? There are a few interesting exercises relating to these questions I could suggest. But I’d like to hear your answer first?


Best wishes

Jon

[Agroundagain]

what makes things happen? Do you make things happen? There are a few interesting exercises relating to these questions I could suggest. But I’d like to hear your answer first?

No, in truth, deeper than my literate mind, I know I don't make this happen. But if the hook gets a hold, I believe it and think it's me, until I remember. But ultimately there is an understanding greater than this that it's just happening. Funny though the exercise of writing is intellectual so it slips in. I am also aware all doubt is thought.

At the moment I am applying for some studies, I keep getting caught in the story that I am choosing the course and have long internal debates about which would suit me more. Then I realise I have no control and let this be, but I also then wonder if I'm bypassing. Can you see how the hook is sneaky?

I have been called out on bypassing before - which was great as I looked and saw I was.

A funny example of understanding I am not making thoughts happen is - Because I have some laziness around mediation, I have often fallen asleep. There is a moment when I am still awake and I start to dream. This reveals there is no control over the mind. I see how funny & random the mind is! But then sleep comes.

SN - I'm sure also the sleep is an escape from the truth too - which is probably another thing to look at.

So many things ahhhhh!

Thank you for your time
Angela

[Agroundagain]

Oh also, I should add - the horror of my psychedelics experience was usual for me. I had taken them a lot in my youth and never had a good time! So probably not the stigma for me, of which I didn't know about.

There was a lot of darkness in me - fears. I had grown up scared of everything - death being the biggest. I was diagnosed with General Anxiety Disorder after having post natal depression.

But weirdly - I had been attracted to the 'idea' of going low, in order to find out what was underneath. But could never do it so was constantly seeing my demons! And the abyss was one, but the truth was there. I guess taking them as an adult meant I could see the messages. It was hard though.

The GAD is no longer with me. I see anxiety coming but it barely gets a hold. There will be deeper layers of darkness I am sure but generally I am no longer hyper vigilant. I am ok not having to control outcomes. Being free of this is has been a huge gift.

Thanks again
:)