Couldn't get it, couldn't forget it

[chillyrodent]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I will be guided to see for myself, without beliefs, that "I" don't exist.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm tired of spiritual bullshit. My shelves are filled with books that have made me feel better about life, but still struggling every fucking day to actually be okay with reality, whatever that is. It feels like there is infinite room to get "better" without actually getting "okay." I want peace, I want to stop protecting myself from life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be confused, frustrated, and angry. I have read, and am reading, Gateless Gatecrashers, and nothing the askers are saying sounds like English words to me. I can't even relate to their responses, so I am afraid that whatever getting I am supposed to get is ungettable for me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
So many books, so much studying. I don't meditate.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[CarefulDog88]

Your intro made me laugh, I like your honesty, read the stuff below and if your ok with it we will get stared

Hi, my name is Paul, I would be very happy to embark on this exploration with you, provided we
both agree it is sensible. Please carefully consider the following points, which blend universal
LU elements with specific guidance:.
1. I Volunteer at LU and all I do is help you formulate the questions to ask, Ultimately you do the
work and the level of earnestness will often determine the Truth revealed
2. Throughout this process, your focus should be solely on your direct experience (DE). We will
avoid delving into theories, beliefs, or alternative methods, including those from non-duality.
Relying on external beliefs is not the aim. I will pose questions, and your responses should stem
directly from your personal experiences.
3. The key elements driving this process are your desire to discover the truth and your
willingness to delve deeply into the questions. Wholehearted engagement in the experiments
and exercises I present is crucial. Your commitment to reporting experiences here with
complete honesty is essential. If you are prepared for this level of engagement, the process will
naturally unfold as it should.
4. To ensure focus and productivity in this process, both of us commit to responding on this
thread daily. In cases of exceptional circumstances preventing a response, we agree to
communicate this in advance on the thread, either the day before or on the day. If this rhythm
doesn't align with your lifestyle, style, or preferences, please inform me, and alternative
arrangements can be made with another guide.
Please read the following documents from LU and make sure you are on board with their
content:
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Learn how to use the Quote Function here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Please answer questions individually, as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue.
Are you ready for this?
What shall I call you?
ALSO:
1. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the bottom left corner, next to
"Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu
where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just
refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)
2. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote
Function' to highlight the questions and answers

[chillyrodent]

Hello Paul. Thank you for picking up my request.

I understand and agree to your guidelines. I have read the pages you referred to, and understand what this is and isn't. As far as it's foreseeable, I'm able to check in every day.

Best,
Roxanne

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
In your intro you wrote:

I'm tired of spiritual bullshit. My shelves are filled with books that have made me feel better about life, but still struggling every fucking day to actually be okay with reality, whatever that is. It feels like there is infinite room to get "better" without actually getting "okay." I want peace, I want to stop protecting myself from life.

Let's set all this aside during our dialogue, start fresh and stay fresh.


"there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

Just rant about it without censoring. Give particular attention to thoughts coming up that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational. Also don't miss writing any strong beliefs about this that come up. Just write without censoring or limiting.

What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing through the separate self? Describe all of them as thoroughly as possible.

Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do, but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no matter how it feels?

[chillyrodent]

there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

Just rant about it without censoring. Give particular attention to thoughts coming up that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational. Also don't miss writing any strong beliefs about this that come up. Just write without censoring or limiting.

It seems unlikely. My self is moving me, making decisions, running life. It bumps up against other selves. It feels distinct, and very me. It looks out of my eyes. It has my opinions, my preferences.

What are your expectations for what will be different in life after first awakening, after seeing through the separate self? Describe all of them as thoroughly as possible.

I have hopes, I guess. Expectations? I'd like to argue less with life. I want to be less preoccupied with myself. I want to stop believing stuff and just know a thing, whatever it is.

Are you willing to proceed knowing it might be like that for you, and to let go of any expectations to experience relief and enjoyment from this in the near future? (you might well do, but you also might not). Are you willing to staying lovingly focused on what is true and real, no matter how it feels?

I am.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

My self is moving me, making decisions, running life. It bumps up against other selves. It feels distinct, and very me. It looks out of my eyes. It has my opinions, my preferences.

Is it? Look and see where is this self that is in control of all of these things?
Can you point to it?
Is there a little control tower with this "self" controlling?

I have hopes, I guess. Expectations? I'd like to argue less with life. I want to be less preoccupied with myself. I want to stop believing stuff and just know a thing, whatever it is.

let's ask some questions here and see if there is a truth to them.

How does it feel in the body when you find yourself arguing with life, describe the sensations that arise?

Consider one belief that you hold strongly about something and describe what it feels like in the body when you ask is this true or is it a thought which isn't true? (sit with this and just answer from the body sensations)

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Is it? Look and see where is this self that is in control of all of these things?
Can you point to it?
Is there a little control tower with this "self" controlling?

It is behind my eyes. It seems I can point to it, yes. If I point to my chest, it is not there, nor in my stomach. When I point to a spot between my eyes, it feels creepy, like I have been hiding but have been found anyway. That seems like my "control tower," my self.

How does it feel in the body when you find yourself arguing with life, describe the sensations that arise?

It feels tight, wary. There is this body to protect, and if the wrong decision is made - poof. Or crash, or boom. It feels like I have to be smarter than life, and I know I'm not. It's scary. It's not even death that feels scary, it's a terror of having made the wrong choice and I wasted everything.

Consider one belief that you hold strongly about something and describe what it feels like in the body when you ask is this true or is it a thought which isn't true? (sit with this and just answer from the body sensations)

Just the sensations, not the belief? I'll use the one above: it feels light in my body to ask if it is true or a thought that isn't true. I can keep it, or I don't have to.

"I exist." I believe that. When I ask if it's true or a thought that isn't true, it just feels interesting, like a worthy question. It doesn't feel like my existence is anything to defend.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
Thank you for your sharing.

We will start off with an exercise that will point to the Direct Experience of sensations. This will help isolate emotion feelings and thought stories from what is actually happening.

Direct Experiencing (DE)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

We are depending totally on DE.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience – Direct Experiencing (DE).

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.


What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?



Can you be 100% sure?



When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

[chillyrodent]

Hello Paul,

Thank you. I read Ilona's article and did the exercise. Interesting.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

I can agree.

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

Pine trees outside the window
Salt and pepper shakers
Coffee cup
Book
Glass
Sunglasses
Chair
Desk

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Birds singing
Refrigerator humming
House settling
Heart beating
Breathing

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

Pine trees outside the window
Salt and pepper shakers
Coffee cup
Book
Glass
Sunglasses
Chair
Desk

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Birds singing
Refrigerator humming
House settling
Heart beating
Breathing

Good effort, but do you get the sense that even the descriptions of what you are seeing and hearing is still very heavily labelled,try to break it down even further to one thing. Can we have another LOOK at it. With out the labels, take them away from the objects, what is actually being seen?
And without the labels/words what is actually being heard?



Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go. Please do it in two ways: (1) during normal activity when possible just label moments of experience internally this way (like if I do it now: sight, sound, sight, feeling, thought, sound, etc.). And one time during the day write me 5 minutes where you practice and write at the same time and use the format above. Here is an example of me doing that:

seeing screen, simply= sight
hearing woman talk on the street, simply= sound
hearing bird chirp, simply= sounds
seeing fingers moving, simply= sight
feeling itch on the scalp of the head, simply= sensation

Let me know what you notice from doing this exercise.

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

but do you get the sense that even the descriptions of what you are seeing and hearing is still very heavily labelled

Yes, I do get that.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go. Please do it in two ways: (1) during normal activity when possible just label moments of experience internally this way (like if I do it now: sight, sound, sight, feeling, thought, sound, etc.). And one time during the day write me 5 minutes where you practice and write at the same time and use the format above.

OK, will do.

Roxanne

[chillyrodent]

And one time during the day write me 5 minutes where you practice and write at the same time and use the format above.

sound, sound, sound, sensation, thought, sight, thought, sight, sound, sight, taste, sight, sound, sound, sight, sound, sensation, sight, sensation, sound, taste, sensation, sound, thought, sensation, thought, sensation, sound, sensation, sound, sight, smell, sound, sensation, sound, sound, thought, sight, sound, thought, touch, sensation, sound, sight, touch, sound, sight, sensation, sensation, sensation, sensation, sensation, touch, sound, sight, sensation.

[chillyrodent]

Let me know what you notice from doing this exercise.

All experiences seem to be sensory. I noticed that when I felt disturbance, it felt good in the body to identify it as "thought." Experience seems more immediate, but it also feels more mental as I identify it.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
Now you are starting to LOOK using Direct Experience, let's go back to this original question and sit for a few minutes,

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

Pine trees outside the window
Salt and pepper shakers
Coffee cup
Book
Glass
Sunglasses
Chair
Desk

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Birds singing
Refrigerator humming
House settling
Heart beating
Breathing

Good effort, but do you get the sense that even the descriptions of what you are seeing and hearing is still very heavily labelled,try to break it down even further to one thing. Can we have another LOOK at it. With out the labels, take them away from the objects, what is actually being seen?
And without the labels/words what is actually being heard?

What are you actually seeing?(a hint: is the seeing happening out there or is it happening at the body, your eyes)
What are you actually hearing?(another hint: are you hearing what is out there or is it happening at the body, your ears)

Let me know what you notice from doing this exercise.

All experiences seem to be sensory. I noticed that when I felt disturbance, it felt good in the body to identify it as "thought." Experience seems more immediate, but it also feels more mental as I identify it.

Can experiences be anything other than sensory, explain in detail please?

Describe "feels more mental as I identify it" please with detail, what is mental?


After you have answered these questions please do exercise below.

Finding the Gap Between Thoughts
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go, report what comes up please.

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

What are you actually seeing?(a hint: is the seeing happening out there or is it happening at the body, your eyes)
What are you actually hearing?(another hint: are you hearing what is out there or is it happening at the body, your ears)

It is happening at the body. What am I seeing / hearing? I guess wavelengths of light or sound...?

Can experiences be anything other than sensory, explain in detail please? Describe "feels more mental as I identify it" please with detail, what is mental?

.
They can be thoughts, that do not register as feeling. A grocery list in the mind: sight, sound, sensation, taste ... Mental.

After you have answered these questions please do exercise below.

OK.

Thank you,
Roxanne