A curious practitioner

[Armastus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

Everything is one consciousness, primordial mind experiencing itself from different points of view. There are various layers in it that become identified with the experience, thus creating a sense of self. A sense of self is a projection of subconscious mechanics, which is inherently empty, there is no solidity to it.

What are you looking for at LU?

To see/realize that the identity "I" consider as me is a projection and there is no self.
Cessation of suffering and dissolving addictions/behavourial tendencies. So "I" could live in more harmony and help other whirlpools on this journey.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Guidance, shift in perception that would help "me" to realize that the sense of self is just a whirlpool. How to be at ease when whirlpooling gets intense and not to get pulled into suffering caused by attachment/aversion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Meditation or preparation for meditation (sitting) has been my everyday practice for 5 years. Have tried mantra sadhanas, prostations and for the past year I have been doing dzogchen practice. I work behind a computer, so I have a lot of time to listen to various teachers on Youtube, which I have done vigorously for the past 4 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

I love your whirlpool analogy.

It is best if you post every day.


Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Armastus]

Hello Stacy,

Very excited about this program :)

How will life change?

Currently I have no grasp on how life will change, maybe the whirlpool I identify myself as will have less gravity or cease to exist. That would mean less grasping and suffering caused by it.

How will you change?

I intellectually "know" there is no me, but I have not experienced it yet. If the awareness can expand beyond the whirlpool, the identity I consider as me will drop.

What will be different?

The center of identity or "I" will expand, so that everything is the center and there will be no identity as experience and experiencer will merge.

What is missing?

Quite difficult to pin down what is missing, but I would say that merging/unification with what is, is missing. I still feel the separation between the whirlpool/center of my current consciousness with the background consciousness where everything is happening. The gravity of secondary consciousness I feel as me, is still too strong to be aware of the awareness it is happening in.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Antti. I am in UTC+3 time zone

Excited to hear from you :)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Antti,

Great. Your expectations are fairly reasonable.



Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[Armastus]

Hello :)

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Literally, the first thing that came up was thank god, finally :D How long have I been identified with this whirlpooling? When I observe this question longer, what also arises is at some level it is difficult for me to believe it - it cant be that simple!

Warmly

[Armastus]

Hello :)

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Literally, the first thing that came up was thank god, finally :D How long have I been identified with this whirlpooling? When I observe this question longer, what also arises is at some level it is difficult for me to believe it - it cant be that simple!

When this question was in my awareness even longer, some deep fears about loved ones came up. How are they able to relate to me, what happens to my relationship when my awareness is not identified with the persona anymore.

Warmly

[Anastacia42]

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

[Anastacia42]

Okay, AFTER you review the above video...

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is


Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving

[Armastus]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about this.

[Anastacia42]

Great. Please demonstrate this here:



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Armastus]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Seeing a cat simply= image/color
Smelling the cat, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the cat, simply = sensation
Tasting the cat (kiss), simply = taste
Hearing the cat purr, simply = sound
Thought about a cat, simply = thought

Seeing a lake= image/color
Smelling the air, simply = smell
Feeling the coldness of water, simply = sensation
Tasting the water, simply = taste
Hearing the water plash, simply = sound
Thought about a lake, simply = thought

Seeing a car= image/color
Smelling inside of the car, simply = smell
Feeling the steering wheel, simply = sensation
Tasting the steering wheel, simply = taste
Hearing the motor run, simply = sound
Thought about a car, simply = thought

Seeing a woman= image/color
Smelling the woman, simply = smell
Feeling the touch of the woman, simply = sensation
Tasting the woman (kiss), simply = taste
Hearing the woman talk, simply = sound
Thought about the woman, simply = thought

Seeing a drum= image/color
Smelling the drum, simply = smell
Feeling the drum skin, simply = sensation
Tasting the drum skin, simply = taste
Hearing the drum sound simply = sound
Thought about a drum, simply = thought

Seeing an altar= image/color
Smelling the air in the room, simply = smell
Feeling clothes on my skin, simply = sensation
Tasting saliva, simply = taste
Hearing the birds chirping, simply = sound
Thought about sitting quietly in a room, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Yes, exactly.

Now let's take it a step further.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Armastus]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Describing experience without "I" is truer, as it has less stories attached.

2. What is here without labels?

Awareness, that notices/experiences through sense organs

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do affect the experience, as they usually come with accumulated stories/baggage

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I was more aware of my body describing without "I"

[Anastacia42]

I'll do it except this one and I'll give you a pointer.
Also I think you meant that with eye there are more stories not less.

Labels do affect the experience, as they usually come with accumulated stories

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[Armastus]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

My actual experience is seeing color red

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Colour red is experienced

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Label suggests something else other than what is here now (red colour).

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

"Green" is not associated in any way with the experience of colour red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Redness is not affected in any way.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Hmm...Indeed, the labels have no affect whatsoever on "reality"

Also I think you meant that with eye there are more stories not less.

Yes, that is what I ment