Ready for this

[rubyjack]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This is self evident to me, but I still function as though there were a "me" and there is no other language for it. Thoughts mysteriously arise, I see that no one is in charge. A mammal intertwined with the whole system of earth responding as mammals do. And at the same time, I fall back into identification with my mundane lovely life.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have done this alone all my life (with teachers, retreats, recordings). I want to see what a guide adds to break me out of my own patterns. At the very least, someone I can talk to about this without them "looking at me funny". Help untying the knots of my leftover childhood tension.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
New ways of seeing, an occasional potent phrase, some one who doesn't let me get away with my "no's". A boost to my own work. I imagine going into my blind alley and them saying "are you sure about that?"

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I
have been a seeker as long as I can remember. Two major experiences of freedom and joy in my early 20's, integrating these ever since (I'm 80). Meditation practice for 50+ years, outgrowing most teachers, now a delightful hour before dawn and a community sangha. I was given the book "Teachings of the Mystics" when I was in my teens. i read it, all the while nodding, yes, yes, that's all so familiar. Discovered Zen and TM ten years later. Currently vipassana is closest to me. Ten fetters led me off into a new exciting direction. It's all fun, some hard fun.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[CarefulDog88]

Hi, my name is Paul,
I would be very happy to embark on this exploration with you, provided we both agree it is sensible. Please carefully consider the following points, which blend universal LU elements with specific guidance:
1. Throughout this process, your focus should be solely on your direct experience (DE). We will avoid delving into theories, beliefs, or alternative methods, including those from non-duality. Relying on external beliefs is not the aim. I will pose questions, and your responses should stem directly from your personal experiences.
2. The key elements driving this process are your desire to discover the truth and your willingness to delve deeply into the questions. Wholehearted engagement in the experiments and exercises I present is crucial. Your commitment to reporting experiences here with complete honesty is essential. If you are prepared for this level of engagement, the process will naturally unfold as it should.
3. To ensure focus and productivity in this process, both of us commit to responding on this thread daily. In cases of exceptional circumstances preventing a response, we agree to communicate this in advance on the thread, either the day before or on the day. If this rhythm doesn't align with your lifestyle, style, or preferences, please inform me, and alternative arrangements can be made with another guide.
Please read the following documents from LU and make sure you are on board with their content:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2
And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Learn how to use the Quote Function here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Are you ready for this?
What shall I call you?

[rubyjack]

Hi Paul,
Thank you for appearing so fast!
I am totally on board with everything you said and everything I have read. I will generally respond in the early morning ( am In Massachusetts, US)
You can call me Ruby.

[CarefulDog88]

Wonderful Ruby,
Just a little bit of house keeping and then we can get started.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Here is the link once again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

I am in Australia, so no doubt there will be some lagging in responses with large time difference, but I will reply everyday.

Let's start with your expectations, in your own words with 100% honesty, answer the following questions.

What do you expect to happen when the illusion of a separate self is seen
through?

How will you change?

How will life change?

What will be different?

What is missing?

[rubyjack]

What do you expect to happen when the illusion of a separate self is seen through?
I expect that my sense of this as true will be more solid and consistent. I have already experienced a sense of freedom, or maybe delight, or maybe spaciousness (words!) the times (which are frequent) when I find myself in this experience, especially i did the first time. That's really my only expectation, if you can call it that.

How will you change? I don't think I will change very much. I won't forget and try to control something or object to reality as much.

How will life change? My life will not change very much, just get a bit bigger, less restricted by my habits.

What will be different? My sense of this as true will be more solid. My life has already changed, in that my curiosity is even bigger and my joy in being alive is, too. I expect these will be more solid too. What I don't expect is that I will suddenly have no issues, no challenges and no problems. I still have work to do.

[CarefulDog88]

Beautiful Ruby,
your expectations are reasonable.

So That we can keep the flow nice and concise,
I would invite you to watch the "how to use the quote" video linked here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

That way each of the questions and answers are clearly set out and easy to follow, if you are unsure about this, please let me know.

You missed answering the question:

What is Missing?

I expect that my sense of this as true will be more solid and consistent. I have already experienced a sense of freedom, or maybe delight, or maybe spaciousness (words!)

LU is focused on seeing through the illusion of a separate self through direct experience. Lets start here, you mentioned you have experienced a sense of freedom,

What is your understanding of Experience?

What is your understanding of Direct Experience (DE)?

[rubyjack]

Sorry, I didn't realize LU had it's own cut and paste system.
Yes I saw that I had missed the last question after I hit reply and intended to answer it this morning.

What is Missing?

I don't understand the question. How can anything be missing? What kind of answer is there for this? If you mean what do I think is missing, I don't think anything is missing.

What is your understanding of Experience?

To me experience means the felt sense/body sensations without the thoughts/story that could come with it. The ultimate mystery of all this seeing and hearing and feeling etc that somehow happens around the me-flavored point of view. The interface between senses and "world" Words are not very good at this. If I need to make a distinction between experience and direct experience I'd say everyday experience includes all the mental gymnastics, since it is experienced along with everything else, whereas direct experience specifically ignores it (excludes it?)

What is your understanding of Direct Experience (DE)?

I guess my answer to this is above. Can I add anything? It's when Now is all there is, The actual Now, without mental addition which is either future or past, or meaningless commentary by a sportscaster who thinks she is causing the plays.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Ruby,

To me experience means the felt sense/body sensations without the thoughts/story that could come with it.

Great, you are on the right track, we just need to clarify.

Separate Self as a Knowing vs Direct Experience:
At LU we ask the client to look, using direct experience to see what's true, LU is not focused on "thought experiments" rather on seeing through the illusion of an inherent self that is in control of thoughts and life.

There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self entity vs. seeing it firsthand in experience right now.

Pointers:
This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Do you agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking?

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" as an experience, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. And that you practice the exercises as given.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. This is not an intellectual process or understanding. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear on this or need further explanation.

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

[rubyjack]

I typed an answer to this last night and saved it as a draft. I can't find it. Cant you tell me where to look?

[rubyjack]

(I found the draft right after sending my question, but there is no way to either take it back or send a correction.)

Do you agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking?

I totally agree. Seems obvious to me.


(I don't like using words--moving experiences into thought to define them. Also, I find that the senses often merge- inseparable, undefinable and floating in space.)

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

seeing computer screen= simply seeing
hearing computer hum= simply sound
seeing print on screen=simply seeing,
grasping mouse= simply sensation
moving mouse=simply sound
watching cursor=simply seeing
sitting in chair= simply sensation
feet=simply sensation
putting hands on keyboard=simply seeing
moving fingers on keys=simply sensation
hearing click of keys=simply sound
feeling pain in neck=simply sensation
swinging foot=simply sensation

wondering why I am doing this=simply thought

petting the dog, feeling his fur and his warmth=simply sensation
deciding to take the dog out=simply thought
finding the door knob=simply seeing
reaching for the knob=simply sensation
turning the cold knob=simply sensation
swinging the door open-simply seeing
feeling the cold air outside-simply sensation
seeing that it is getting dark=simply seeing
wondering if the dog is ready to come in=simply thought
looking out the window for the dog=simply seeing

lying on couch=simply sensation
looking out the window at the sunset=simply seeing

planning/thinking about dinner=simply thought
walking into the kitchen=simply seeing, sensation
locating refrigerator=simply seeing
grasping handle=simply sensation
pulling out vegetable drawer=simply seeing, sensation
picking up carrot=simply sensation
carrying carrots to sink=simply sensation, seeing
feeling cold water=simply sensation
hearing carrot scraping on grater=simply hearing
seeing gratings pile up in bowl=simply seeing
pouring salad dressing on carrots=simply seeing, sensation
picking up fork=simply sensation
chewing carrot salad=simply sensation
tasting tangy carrot salad=simply taste
hearing myself chewing salad=simply sound
looking for a glass in the cupboard=simply seeing
grasping glass=simply sensation
feeling the cold metal of the faucet-simply sensation
filling the glass with water=simply seeing,
drinking cold water=simply taste, sensation
wanting something more to eat=simply sensation simply thought

breathing=simply sensation

deciding to feed the wood stove=simply thought
gauging size of logs=simply seeing
grasping a log=simply sensation
grasping handle=simply sensation
smelling wood smoke=simply smell
feeling the heat of the fire=simply sensation

locating bathroom cupboard=simply seeing
hearing hinges squeak=simply hearing
finding dental floss in cupboard=simply seeing
feeling floss package=simply sensation
cutting a piece of dental floss=simply sensation, seeing
flossing my teeth=simply sensation
locating toothbrush=simply seeing
picking up toothbrush=simply sensation
brushing teeth= simply sensation, taste, smell
spitting into the sink=simply sound, sensation, seeing
turning on faucet=simply sensation
hearing running water=simply sound,
rinsing mouth=simply sensation
looking in mirror=simply seeing
wrinkling my nose=simply sensation, seeing
judging my face=simply thought

feeling tired=simply sensation

fear of not falling asleep=simply sensation, thought,


Would you like more of these, or is this enough?

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Ruby,

Great effort on the DE exercise. It shows you have a good intuition on Direct Experience.

I don't like using words--moving experiences into thought to define them

Something is being exposed and that is good.

Look here:
Is there an expectation that feelings will stop appearing once the illusion
is seen through?

Why would they? Just because the illusion is seen through!

Thoughts will be experienced as thoughts rather than lived as ‘my story’,
it will be seen as the illusion and this life will be as its meant to be,
free.


Beautiful.

Let's start from here:
A simple exercise:

Sit quietly for 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice....

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?

Try the exercise with a relaxed curiosity, just look at what is happening.
Ok so now let’s look a bit deeper into thought.

What is a thought made off?

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

[rubyjack]

Is there an expectation that feelings will stop appearing once the illusion
is seen through?

No I do not have that expectation. I don't think i could have even thought of it.

Why would they? Just because the illusion is seen through!

Are you saying they would? Why would they? I will still be human, just not hooked by them.-I'm confused. Are you talking about thoughts or feelings? I guess it doesn't mater. I don't see why either would go away. They just radically change meaning--thoughts are like smoke-nothing to believe.
I guess I don't understand what you are saying here.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come from nowhere/nothing and go nowhere. They disappear like smoke, only faster.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No I have no control over thoughts.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?

No. I have no control over thoughts.

What is a thought made off?

They are made of nothing.

What can a thought do?

It can't do anything but pass through

Can a thought think?

No a thought can't think.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Ruby,
Ok, all very good answers, now lets get out of our head and start LOOKING, using the Direct Experience.

I'm confused. Are you talking about thoughts or feelings? I guess it doesn't mater. I don't see why either would go away. They just radically change meaning--thoughts are like smoke-nothing to believe.
I guess I don't understand what you are saying here.

That's right, they wont go away, and it doesn't matter.

There are two types of feeling, the first is pure sensation which we refer to in our direct experience. The second feeling is emotion (sensation + thought and labels) which we don't use in Direct Experience.

What is a thought made off?

They are made of nothing.

Let's have a look at this, and see if we can go a bit deeper,

Here is an exercise:

I invite you to use a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes.

Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side.

Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts (I am frightened) ? Does this make sense if not let me know and i will elaborate further.

What do you Notice?

Lets have another look, what is a thought made of?

[rubyjack]

What do you Notice?

Several things: First there is a lot of empty space, no thoughts, just seeing-whatever is in front of me or the colors of the insides of my eyes. When I am thinking, thoughts come at random. Most of my thoughts are images, sometimes with a word or two attached, more often with what I call protowords--meanings that could become words but don't need to to be received. This is true for both sides. Usually the image comes first, then words if there are any. I also noticed that the ones in the "external" side sometimes shade later into the me referenced side when I have a reaction to them e.g. an image of a condemned house near my in my town, a big beautiful old tavern. After the image comes a feeling of sadness, and then I'm on the other side with a sense of sadness and a protothought of love for the house and a few words about why. I also noticed that the two sides had roughly the same number of marks. Sometimes there was a thought about thinking and doing the exercise, which was just another thought on the me side.

Lets have another look, what is a thought made of?

Maybe I don't know what you mean by "made of" The answer is the same-they are made of nothing--they appear and disappear, leave no mark-they are ephemeral, insubstantial. Or maybe you mean something about content, like images or words? How can they be made of anything but whatever mystery makes them possible? What am I missing in your question?

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Ruby,
Nice effort in the exercise, before we move into the response, would you be kind enough to answer this question please.

What am I missing in your question?

I would like you to Look using Direct Experience DE, what does this feel like when you ask this question?.