Seeking guidance

[Allyne]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that what we usually call the “self” is a fiction. Moreover, this fiction generates and sustains the illusion that we are separate from other beings. I understand liberation from this fiction is what my own tradition (Zen) means by kensho (“seeing one’s true nature”), also known as “awakening” or “enlightenment.”

What are you looking for at LU? I am seeking assistance from others who are experienced in guiding someone like myself who is sincerely seeking the liberation of “no self.” I have begun reading _Liberation Unleashed_ and _Gateless Gatecrashers_.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect assistance in deconstructing my beliefs and expectations in order to directly point to the experience of no self. I tend to overthink things, which is one reason I spent years as a professor of philosophy and religion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been practicing Zen meditation for several years, and have attended a few Zen retreats. I attend one or two sangha meetings a week. I have been working with the question, “Who am I?”

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Allyne]

Thank you!

I’ve read the FAQ and watched the video on using the quote function and replying.

What you have said sounds great. Let’s begin!

[Allyne]

Sorry — I am in the Central Time Zone of the USA (same time as. Chicago)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne

I missed somehow the notification, and I didn't see your reply. I appologise!
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in the Central Time Zone of the USA (same time as. Chicago)

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

What you have said sounds great. Let’s begin!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Allyne]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

In one sense, nothing. The world will be the same, and my circumstances will be the same. But in another sense, everything will change. When I really realize the truth of my nature, my awareness of everything will change. I imagine that I will at least be on the track to not wishing things were different than they are, not seeking to hold on to the pleasant or push away the unpleasant. BTW, I practice Zen so I usually refer to this as kensho, “to see one’s true nature.” I will probably use that term instead of alternating it with awakening, enlightenment, disidentification, etc.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

A permanent shift in awareness, a permanent dropping of the illusion of a separate self — but not a full eradication of the separate self. I see that as the work of a lifetime.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I think I may have once feared that waking up would turn me into someone who grins all the time and loses interest in everything that I cared about previously. I no longer think that. In my reading, I’ve seen that fear is often an obstacle. I’m not sure I have a fear of waking up — maybe just a fear of not waking up. I have wanted this for so long and it seems to come easily to many others, so I have worried that there is something wrong with me that has prevented me from waking up.

4. What are you hoping for?

I understand kensho as the result of the dissolution or disappearance of the separate self. I also understand it to be but the first step in a lifetime of realizing/applying this truth in every part of my life. It is a prerequisite for walking the path I have in mind — working with koans and with a teacher to deepen the realization that occurs in kensho.

5. What is missing?

I don’t think anything is missing. I don’t think I need anything “added” to my life. If anything, I just need something taken away — the illusion of separateness.

By the way, the name “Allyne” is used of men and women, but I happen to be a man and pronounce my name the same as “Alan.”

Thank you for your help.

Love,
Allyne

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne

By the way, the name “Allyne” is used of men and women, but I happen to be a man and pronounce my name the same as “Alan.”

Thanks for letting me know! :) I haven’t seen “Alan” written like that before

Thank you for your help.

It’s my pleasure talking to you!:)

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I think I may have once feared that waking up would turn me into someone who grins all the time and loses interest in everything that I cared about previously. I no longer think that. In my reading, I’ve seen that fear is often an obstacle.

Yes, fear/resistance combined or not with expectations could be a big obstacle to seeing reality as it is. So if there are any fears or resistance to this inquiry, it's good to have them in the open before we start.

I have wanted this for so long and it seems to come easily to many others, so I have worried that there is something wrong with me that has prevented me from waking up.

I understand kensho as the result of the dissolution or disappearance of the separate self.

The self is not something that will dissolve or disappear, it was never there in the first place. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. No one to wake up. Things are just happening (more on this later...)

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Allyne]

If you look for the I, what is there?

Nothing. At most, the thought of “I.”

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

I think “Yes!”

Where exactly did you look?

Scanned through my body, starting with my toes and up through my head. I ask, “Where is ‘I’?”

What exactly did you find?

Not an “I.” The thought that the “I” is just a thought. Memory comes up of what I learned in school about the brain being the center of our personal identity, and then the thought that I still find no “I” and the thought that whatever the relationship of the brain is to thoughts, it is not “I.” The thought of “I” arises and passes away.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Vast blue sky, with a thought appearing as a cloud and passing through my vista. Feeling of serenity. If I introduce the sense of “I,” then the vista narrows dramatically and I sense narrowness, incompleteness. When I let go of the thought of “I,” then the serenity returns.

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne

Thank you for your answers. They give me an idea where to start.
Before we begin let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

There is a BIG difference between knowing/remebering that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known/experienced? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne
I hope all is good on your side!
When we started this exploration, one of the guidelines I posted to you was about posting everyday or every second day and to drop me a note if you needed more time. The purpose for this is to build up a momentum, a momentum of looking, and it also it lets me know if a person is really interested in doing this or not. So, with this in mind, can you please let me know if you are having second thoughts about this exploration...or having difficulties with looking at the pointers from my last post.

Love
Rali

[Allyne]

Thank you for the clarification about Direct Experience.

However, is 'an apple' actually known/experienced? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, I don’t actually experience the apple, only the direct experience of my senses — seeing, feeling, tasting, etc. The apple is a thought, an inference from my senses.

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne

No, I don’t actually experience the apple, only the direct experience of my senses — seeing, feeling, tasting, etc. The apple is a thought, an inference from my senses.

Great looking! Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Can we please aim for at least one post a day? Let me know if you can't do that. I'll do the same if something happens on my side.
Love
Rali

[Allyne]

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

#1: Drinking a Diet Coke
Seeing the white cup — image/color (seeing)
Feeling the styrofoam of the cup — feeling
Feeling the plastic of the straw — feeling
Feeling the cold liquid — feeling
Tasting the Diet Coke — tasting
Hearing ice and liquid make noise when the cup is shaken — sound (hearing)
The thought of being refreshed — thought (thinking)

#2 Sitting in car in parking lot next to busy four-lane street first with eyes closed and then with eyes open
Hearing sounds of car engines driving and the Doppler effect — sounds (hearing)
Hearing sounds of car engines starting and shutting off in parking lot — sounds (hearing)
Smelling car exhaust — smell (smelling)
Seeing cars driving moving quickly — seeing colored images (seeing)
Thought of traffic — thought (thinking)

Is this what you meant?

Can we please aim for at least one post a day? Let me know if you can't do that. I'll do the same if something happens on my side.

Yes.

[poppyseed]

Hi Allyne

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Let’s apply now that looking to what is here and what is not.
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?


Love
Rali

[Allyne]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Relaxing. Calming.

Let’s apply now that looking to what is here and what is not.
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears. In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

No.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

No.

Where do thoughts come from? Where are they coming from and going to?

They arise and pass away. I don’t know — can’t know — from where and to where.

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

No. They are like monkeys leaping from limb to limb on a tree.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear.

I’m tired. I have to pack for trip tomorrow. I’m getting calmer. I feel flush from heater. I’m hungry.

Now check: Could you predict the order of their appearance?

No.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No.

How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Seconds (or even microseconds) until the next thought arises.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

It is just a thought that ascribes organization.

Are thoughts 100% true?

No.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Gone. Absent. Non-existent. A thought that arose and passed away.

I may not be as prompt to reply over the next two days, although I will try. We leave in the morning to travel several hours away to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. This is our third trip to find out about my wife’s serious health condition. We are not expecting good news.